Episode Transcript
FAWN: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Our Friendly World, everybody.
MATT: Hello.
FAWN: Last night I was talking to my friend Holly, and it, it's a conversation I actually had. Different subject, but it, it all came together A conversation I had with two different friends within a span of three days.
And last night was an exceptionally hard one, because I called her feeling a sense of not just overwhelmed, but a, a sense of, sadness. Like I, I'm, I'm tired and drained, exhausted, and really stressed out. Okay. And she brought up something that she's brought up before, which is codependency.
She's like, "I really want you to read up on what codependency is." And I always felt so offended by that. And she's like... She asked me, she's like, "Well, what do you think it means?" And I told her, and she's [00:01:00] like, "No, that's not what it means." And as she explained it, I'm like, "Oh." It was less offensive to me as she explained it.
The way she explained it to me was codependency is when someone, let's say, is in a bad mood or they're going through something, you, your world is affected by it. So in order for me to feel happy, I need you to feel happy. If someone, if my little teenager over here is having a really messed up mood and is in a bad mood, is stomping around, snapping at everyone, or is feeling all this anxiety and, like, hormonal craziness, then I feel terrible.
The second- Our kid is like, "Yay," and giggling and happy, I immediately feel happy. And I'm just on a rollercoaster up and down with everybody. And it's not just one kid, it's two kids, [00:02:00] and it's you, Matt. And so I was learning last night, uh, to figure out what to do about it, to, to realize I am not attached to you.
You can have whatever emotion you want. And I'm saying this because this creates better friendships, because it's not just with family, it's not just with someone you have a charge with, it's in every, in every aspect. If you don't have that boundary of realizing, "Okay, this person is in a mood, and for me to match their mood is absolutely not going to help anything."
And if I don't realize that boundary, if I don't realize what to do, if I don't do like a separation emotionally, then it, it, it transforms and it, it comes up in every situation, not just the people you feel a charge on. [00:03:00] But as in the case yesterday, we went to a friend's house. We were all at a table together, and I brought up a question to the expert that was at the table and It was a, it was kind of a deep question, and it made this one person feel so uncomfortable.
And I didn't know this, but like two minutes in the question and the debate was going on around the table, and I thought it was a really cool conversation. Like, uh, it was something that I was really wanting an answer to, and I wanted to know what the expert's opinion was and like what's true, what's not true.
Y- how can we find out the answer to this problem? Anyway, this person w- shut down immediately and said, "I am not comfortable with this. I want it to stop right now." And the whole table, in a nanosecond, shifted. But then I felt bad [00:04:00] for the rest of the day because she felt bad. Because I felt like, "Oh no, it was because of me.
I'm always the problem. Oh, she always reacts to everything I say like that." It's true. Like every time I'm with her, my emotions completely change because of her reaction to something I say. And so I felt bad the rest of the day instead of letting her feel bad. Okay, we switched the subject, fine. But it wasn't switched in my head.
It wasn't switched in my heart. I was, I was walking around feeling bad the rest of the day. And it, and then it was that and it was our youngest, you know, like going up and down the rollercoaster of emotions. And by late at night when everyone else was asleep, I was exhausted and sad and completely just drained, and confused, like what am I supposed to do?[00:05:00]
How are we supposed to have friendships and relationships with all this mess? Which is why lately I've been saying I, I wanna be left alone. Like I, I, I, maybe I just belong on a deserted island by myself because it's hard to deal with people And so this is what happened. I ended up sleeping so hard And I, I mean, I must have gone to bed around 4:00 AM, and then I woke up at 10:00 AM, which is not like me.
I was just beyond. And thank goodness it was the weekend. So this morning I get up and I turn on my computer. I'm trying to go through what I need to do for the following week for work.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: And serendipitously, um, I clicked on something on YouTube and serendipitously there were, these, TED Talks that came [00:06:00] up the, on the side.
And this one woman was talking about how she turned to her husband. I don't know where, what her talk was about, but this was what I got from it And it, it's, it was very much like a conversation I've had with you many times where I come to you, Matt, and I'm saying, "I want to go on a silent retreat where I don't speak to anyone and no one speaks to me.
I can just go through the day and just eat and just be without, without noise." Anyway, so this woman did this, and she said she did it for seven days. And it's not just not talking and not being spoken to. There's very little movement. So you can't be doing activities. You have to just be still, not just with your speech, your mind, but, like, your body, right?
And seven days of that- Oh, dear ... is actually quite challenging. And here's what she realized, was [00:07:00] that the noise she wanted s- she was trying to get away from was actually her, because the quieter it got, the louder her, her head got, whether it was a song that was playing on loop in her own head.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: Like it, you know, sometimes... What do they call that? An ear-
MATT: Ear,
FAWN: earworm. An earworm, where over and over a-again you hear a song in your head and it doesn't stop. Um, it was either that or her thoughts on things that bother her. Whatever it was, it was, like, nonstop, and she realized, "Wow, the noise is me." And this made me think of the conversation I had last night with Holly, that codependency, that, um, I can feel bad constantly, right?
But I can choose to walk away. I can choose to separate from someone else's emotion. But because I'm in the thick of it, it's hard for me. And because it's now such a habit that it's become my personality that I just don't even [00:08:00] think that I can separate myself, because I'm like a baby who thinks, "Oh, this arm that's coming with a spoon to feed me is actually me."
You know? Like, babies can't- Right ... separate themselves from the outside world. Mm-hmm. They feel at one with everything until they get a little older and they realize, "Oh, I'm separate." You know? I feel like I, um, I was in a state where I didn't, I didn't know that there, I could have a separation.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: So you can be in a bad mood, you can have a bad day, Matt, and I can say, "Okay," and not be devastated the way you're devastated.
Do you know what I'm saying? I do. And I feel, I think I was in a state where I thought, "Well, I have to be compassionate, so I have to feel what you're feeling." And that, I, I don't think that helps anybody, right? So this is what she realized. And one other thing. S- uh, she also went on, I guess, a retreat of some [00:09:00] kind where she was in a dark, dark room, like negative darkness, and she ate and slept in, in total darkness for seven days.
Which by the way, I don't think is healthy. Wow. I don't think anyone should do that. Because when I was, um, when I was in college and I was taking acting courses-
MATT: Mm-hmm ...
FAWN: our acting teacher told us, "If you ever need to cry, sit in a closet for five to 10 minutes in darkness, crouching down, like, you know, with your posture."
MATT: Mm-hmm. "
FAWN: Guaranteed you'll start crying. You'll get depressed within five minutes." I cannot imagine doing that for seven days-
MATT: Right ...
FAWN: um, if you're not used to it. Do you know what I'm saying? Like if-
MATT: Even if you are.
FAWN: No, I'm, I'm just thinking about, like, people who don't have sight, right?
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: I'm not trying to, say that that's a hindrance, but for someone to do [00:10:00] that on purpose and not be exposed to any light, like their skin doesn't touch sunlight- Right
uh, is what I'm trying to say. It's not healthy, right? But what I w- what I, whatever. She did it, and she described how she came out of it, and the way she came out of it after the seven days was they had her go outside, had a blindfold, and they took the blindfold off, or she took the blindfold off, and this is at sunrise.
And so the sun wasn't, very, very bright. Mm-hmm. It was just coming up. And she said everything was blurry. She couldn't make out anything. It took her a very long time to understand what she was looking at, that, in the not too far off distance was a tree trunk. And then her vision expanded to, "Oh, there are leaves on the tree."
And then l- one by one, she saw more leaves, until she fully understood the scene she's [00:11:00] looking at, that where she's standing.
MATT: Mm.
FAWN: And I thought this is related to what we were talking about. What I, what I'm trying to explain to you that I learned last night was We are in such a state of so much input, and we have to do things so fast, and we're multitasking.
And so when we see someone in a, in a nanosecond, we see what they're wearing, what the, what color it is, um, their expressions, what the expressions could mean. Um, and then our super subconscious picking up what we think the ex- expression means based on our, background and our, history, our own history to think...
You know what I'm saying? Like, someone can look at the same scene as someone else, but then they'll understand different things- Right ... based on their past experience. So there's all this information in a nanosecond that happens, but if you take a break, it's like you have to understand, "Oh, [00:12:00] I'm looking at a tree."
Do you know what I'm saying? I
MATT: do.
FAWN: And for your mind to slowly come to a definition of what you're perceiving. It's a tree. And to be in awe of it, to really hear what the tree is saying, to understand the significance of what's in front of you. Getting back to basics and not being so overwhelmed with so much information, Anyway, so that's my thought for today, for this whole week, is that. What do you think?
MATT: Okay, so- I
FAWN: know that was a lot.
MATT: For me, there's... Mm. Fine. I'm at a table, somebody's like, "Oh, this is making me uncomfortable," that's fine. It's forgotten. No problem. Zero problem doing that. Don't care. Um, fine, no worries.
FAWN: Even if it was directed at you?
MATT: Even if it's directed at me. You know, it might take [00:13:00] me five minutes to shake it off, but certainly not a day.
FAWN: It takes me a day.
MATT: I mean, basically sitting at a similar table, I was almost inval- our marriage was alm- was invalidated by people sitting at the table, and I let it go.
FAWN: Yeah.
MATT: Okay? So that's me. My difficulty is with the people I love, getting separation from that.
I mean, that requires an act of will, and that's a scary thing because once I enact that will, it's real hard to roll it back, if not impossible to roll it back for me. So I have to be very judicious and careful about that aspect of things. So half of it I'm totally good, no worries. But like, oh my goodness, you know, watching your child go through painful things or go through emotional outbursts or any of the rest of it, it's, it's [00:14:00] incredibly hard.
And I, I, I have a s- I have an impossible task to separate myself from it.
FAWN: I know. I know. I, I had to reach a level of complete, complete exhaustion. Because you can still go to bed at the end of the day. I'm still up dealing with stuff, right? If they-- when they get sick, it's me at night staying up with them.
You know what I'm saying? You still have that separation, whereas I never did, not physically or emotionally. So for me, it's a little bit different because I'm realizing... 'Cause yeah, I'm, I mean, you know me, Matt, I'm all or nothing, because if I choose to leave a situation, I'm gone. I am gone. You will never see me again.
But I'm learning, like with this messed up neighbor, we were talking about this. [00:15:00] Holly was saying um, a tormentor is a mentor, like a tor-mentor, mentor, right? The, the neighbor is tormenting me, but all of a sudden last week on my own, I realized, oh, wait a minute. Look what transpired. She is so-- Her, her actions and maybe her is so evil, but what transpired here is something I had never done in my life, is to somehow figure out physical boundaries.
Like instead of, "I'm moving. We gotta get outta here."
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: Like, no. I put up boundaries. I had, I had HOA come and put stakes everywhere, no. If I had to get the police involved, I got the police involved. This is my [00:16:00] house.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: To, to, to do that instead of, instead of retreating and finding another situation in a new place, same stuff comes up again.
Boundary issues, comes up in different ways though. Until we face it and we establish What we need to learn from that situation, I think that's when the program stops repeating itself, so I was so happy. I'm like, "Oh, she taught me to have boundaries," this evil, stupid neighbor. And I felt good about it.
And I was talking to a childhood friend of mine who's known me all my life, and I'm like... She's like, "Whoa, do you, do you understand what just happened?" Because same thing with my family, right? I never had the boundaries. I just left. I had to leave to save my life, I felt like, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but it's like you don't ha- going back to what you just said, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
[00:17:00] You don't have to fully disconnect and not end... You, you don't have to end the relationship. What you can do is just go, "Huh, okay. You're going through this. Nothing lasts forever. I'll be here, but I'm just gonna go in this other room right now, or I'm gonna go do this audition, or I'm gonna, um, go do a painting, or I'm going to go meet a friend.
Hope you feel better. You're really smart. You're gonna figure it out." You know what I'm saying? I do. Like making sure everyone is safe, and not leaving forever, but saying, "Okay. All right," in a gentle way, removing yourself so you can have some peace and you can come back. Um, I don't know. I'm just learning this.
I'm sure if Holly was here, she would explain it in a much better way than I am. But do you understand what I'm trying to say?
MATT: It, it, it sounds very stoicness of you, honestly.
FAWN: I hate stoicism. Hate it. I hate that. [00:18:00] And now everybody's throwing that word around, by the way.
MATT: Hate?
FAWN: Y- uh, I dislike it very much. Stop it. Mm. Stoicism.
MATT: Stoicism is past its vogue, honestly, so- Okay,
FAWN: good ...
MATT: that's a whole other story.
FAWN: If I hear one more person say it, I think I'm gonna flip the table over.
MATT: See, fortunately, it's me who keeps saying it, so we're good. Life is simple.
FAWN: No, I keep hearing it everywhere, seriously.
It, it, it's
MATT: last-
FAWN: Wow,
MATT: they're like, they're like two or three years behind the times.
FAWN: It's like it's... No, but I've been hearing it for a while, and it's still happening. It's, um, ugh. You know how people throw around words and they don't mean anything anymore?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: At first I didn't like it. Now I just roll my eyes when I hear, "Oh, I'm stoic."
To me, I, I'm thinking, do they really know what that means? Or do I know what it means? It's
MATT: gone through many different
FAWN: definitions. I don't know if I kn- I still, I don't understand what it means. To me it means you don't care and you're just gonna put up a wall.
MATT: That's the traditional now definition. But the thing is- That has nothing to do with the [00:19:00] philosophy
FAWN: the thing is, what I'm talking about, you still do care. Our little teen can have a total tantrum in the kitchen while she's trying to clean the kitchen, where I said I'm cleaning the kitchen, but she's going to assert her dominance and say, "I'm doing the kitchen," and she's throwing things around.
I'd be like, "Oh, thanks for taking care of that. I know you got it. Okay. All right, I'm gonna go now." You know what I'm saying? Like, let her be. I'm tired of being the one who's trying to be b- bringing peace in the situation.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: And I'm also tired of being the person who, God forbid I have an opinion about something or I believe something, that that destroys our little kid's, like, sense of the world, and is now mad at me because I may have one belief that she doesn't believe in.
Do you know what I'm saying?
MATT: I do.
FAWN: So it's like, "Okay. All right. Be mad. I understand why you're mad. [00:20:00] All right. I'll try not to bring it up until you calm down." You know? I don't know. I don't know. I, I don't know what the best way is, and I keep going in and out of, trying to please and appease everybody.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: And I'm kinda done with it. I need a break and I need to just be still, like that woman who went on the silent retreat.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: I'm gonna go silence my own inner self, like ground myself in harmony That's it.
MATT: I understand. I understand completely. Um, yeah, figuring out how to, I would think of it as gain some emotional distance from it.
FAWN: Just not take things personally and go, "Okay."
MATT: Right. Yeah. And, and, and that's-- I think that's been a struggle. I think that's certainly been a struggle for me. And so of course, I believe it's a struggle for everybody. But yeah, I was always the one when the [00:21:00] teacher was like, "Who did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?"
I always felt guilty.
FAWN: Mm-hmm.
MATT: You know, and I'm sitting there in a room of 30 people, and I didn't do anything. And the guy who is guilty is just sitting there .
FAWN: Right. Uh, I was gonna say something else about this. I forgot
MATT: I did think it was interesting about the cave aspect of-- I mean cave, the, uh, total darkness aspect- Right ... of things. 'Cause what I, what I had heard, or maybe you didn't say, was that isolated too.
FAWN: Mm-hmm. '
MATT: Cause that would be the part... I mean, that's madness right there. Most people go a little- I don't know ... a little loopy in
FAWN: the process.
Yeah, I don't know if she was isolated. I know that... Well, she did say she, it was negative darkness, so she couldn't tell if she-- After a while, she didn't know if her eyes were closed or open.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: And she ate that way too. So someone, I'm sure, had to cook and bring her some food.
MATT: Yeah, but did they interact with her?
FAWN: I don't know. I don't know. It was just, like, literally a, like an 11-minute TED Talk. Mm-hmm. So I don't... She didn't really get into it.
MATT: Yeah, I just kind of, I'm, [00:22:00] I'm assuming it's almost like solitary confinement in negative darkness.
FAWN: Yeah, I don't... By the way- Not even- ... please, you guys, don't do that. I don't think that's okay.
Don't do it. We need sunlight. We, we need sunlight.
MATT: And we need
FAWN: community. If, you know, even if we can't see it, you know what I'm saying?
MATT: Yes.
FAWN: Um, what was I gonna say, though?
I was gonna bring it back to friendship because, okay, so maybe friends not always are going to feel comfortable about having a tantrum in front of another friend. I mean, we would hope so, right? But it does happen.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: But it's good to know this tool to separate yourself and not take it personally or have a boundary like, "Oh, okay, you're feeling this way," and maybe I could take it as you're targeting me, right?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: But it's like, okay, but it's your experience. Like for example, politics, right? When s- when one friend finds out you're actually the opposing [00:23:00] party Even though you have everything in common and your friendship is great, once that one subject comes up, th- uh, it changes the temperature instantaneously.
It gets hot, right? But if we're like, "Oh, look at that, they had a reaction," and think, "That's their reaction. Huh." Like I say, you know, following my own advice, sometimes you have to remember to think, "I'm watching a movie," when you're in front of someone.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: Just watch a movie. Don't take it personally.
You're watching a screen, you're not the screen.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Does that make sense?
MATT: It totally, and, and but again, you're dealing with kind of these really conflicting, and, and I would say it's important for literally all, like, strong emotions if the other person is feeling it. Don't, don't necessarily, sometimes you will, don't necessarily accept delivery. If you're friends with somebody and, you know, their [00:24:00] spouse passes away, they're gonna need somebody who is disconnected from the emotion that they're going through- And yet-
without, without being a meanie.
FAWN: Right, and yet-
MATT: Or an A-hole ...
FAWN: still loving enough to be able to hold you.
MATT: Yes.
FAWN: But you're not both devastated. One person needs to be the strong one.
MATT: And one person needs to be thinking clearly, too.
FAWN: Yes.
MATT: And, and that's what you n- that's what I feel you would need to be for that other person.
FAWN: Agree. I agree completely. Remember a long time ago we heard that story, this was years ago, about a woman who lost her spouse in some other country, and that country was, uh, trying to cover up the, the wrongful death. And she was, she was so distraught because this was her fiancé, and these two other women who were also from the same country she was, saw what was happening and were trying to befriend her and saying, "Please don't sign this [00:25:00] document."
'Cause the government was trying to have her sign this thing that, um, said it's basically her fault or, it was worded in such a way that, um, it, it was, it would've been more devastating for her. She would've had to deal with a lot of legal issues. Um, and, and they were trying to befriend her, but because she was so emotional and so distraught, she kept pushing them away.
But they knew to... They knew how to hold her, hold space for her, and guide her, even though they didn't know each other. They ended up becoming friends, and they totally helped her out because, because of their clear thinking. Even though they had compassion for her, they had that, that state of mind like, "Hey, don't sign this.
This is wrong."
MATT: Right. And, and honestly, I think you just hit the nail on the head right there with two words: hold space.
FAWN: Mm. [00:26:00]
MATT: Hold space. When someone that you care about is going through it, hold space, hold them in light, hold them.
FAWN: And that space could be, "I have to leave the room for a second." You know, you can have your tantrum, you- your emotions.
MATT: 'Cause sometimes there's little to nothing that you can say other than making sure you, you create a space when they come back.
FAWN: Mind the gap. There needs to be a gap. You can't be immersed and become the same organism. You need some distance. You need some space as well. I mean, there's a lot of ways you can interpret holding space.
It's all of it together,
MATT: Yes.
FAWN: It's the hug. It's also a distance at the same time. A distance as far as like that, a, a very hot, erratic emotion
MATT: All right, that's it. Is there anything else we should add?
FAWN: Okay, no. All right, thanks for listening, guys. Have a lovely every day. [00:27:00]
MATT: Be well and hold space.
