Episode Transcript
An O.C.E.A.N. of Friends TRANSCRIPT
Fawn: Welcome back to our friendly world everybody. Hello. [00:00:00] Hi everybody. So you've probably heard the term There are plenty of fish in the sea Remember hearing that a long time ago? They would say that when you were heartbroken or you were breaking up with someone And people would say there are plenty of fish in the sea right Not just one person and so There's a whole wide world A huge universe with many dimensions and so many friends that we actually have, that we can connect with, truly, even though it may not seem like it.
So now, this ocean comes up. Thank you, Matt, and thank you, David
MATT: Brooks. And now this ocean comes up.
Fawn: An ocean of friends. What in the world? So you all know I hate tests. I dislike them. Ooh, tests. Mm mm mm. I dislike them so much. So Matt the other day you guys has the whole family take this test [00:01:00] and so I'm like fine It was at the end of the day.
I'm tired. Everybody was on their computers and I'm like, okay this one and I thought you said yeah fine that one because if you google the test Which was what? What was it called? The OCEAN
MATT: test? No, it's called the Big Five Personality Test.
Fawn: Alright, the Big Five Personality Test. And I think OCEAN is an acronym. OCEAN is an acronym. O C E A N. So, of course, the one I picked on The one I clicked on. You picked on. Like, it took forever to answer these questions.
MATT: And you got terrible response.
Fawn: And, you know me by now, you guys, if you've been listening to our show, I can't take tests.
I love cookbooks. I love it. For me, cookbooks are like, you know how people look at, Romance novels. For me a cookbook is a. romance novel i, I love it so much, even though we're vegan, if it's a beautiful cookbook, I'll still buy it. If it's [00:02:00] not vegan. However, if you ask me to open it up and follow the directions, I don't comprehend what they're saying.
And that's why I hate tests, because I don't understand the questions that are being asked of me. So, I answered 100 questions. It took me over
MATT: 20 minutes. It did? Yeah, I was sitting there going, Okay, okay, hustle up, buttercup.
Fawn: So, meanwhile, the kids take it, and I'm thinking we're all taking the same test.
In the same boat. They were done in two minutes, in under two minutes.
MATT: Ah, it was not two, but it was less than five.
Fawn: Was it? It was. Because I was on the third question, and they're like, okay, I'm done, I have this number. This is what I got, and you're going through and saying what that means, like what their score meant.
Meanwhile, I'm on the third question, and I was feeling so frustrated and so rushed, so I, I rushed through the whole test. What, 25 minutes later, 2025, I get my result. However The particular test that I took, [00:03:00] we had to pay money for it to, totally understand what it meant.
MATT: I was looking for
Fawn: numbers. I only got one number, but you guys got, numbers for each category?
Exactly. Meanwhile, I had, one generic number. But to know more, I would have had to pay. So I'm like, I'm not paying for this. I don't even believe in this test. So then I had to take the test the kids took. Yes. Which took what, two, five minutes? Five minutes! Which for me took seven minutes, because I'm like, what does this mean?
Like it was a simple question for a normal human being, but for me, I'm like, I don't understand what it's asking me. So anyway, we get the numbers and of course I was completely What's the word? Um Offended. Famboozled?
MATT: Offended. Oh, offended. Yes. Quick, quick to the offense.
Fawn: Anyway. What is going on? Now, I admire David Brooks.
I do. He's a PBS commentator. He also has a book that we really like. And reading it, isn't it interesting that we're all completely in the same [00:04:00] wavelength? We've been talking about the same thing, but we hadn't heard of him we've been talking about exactly what he's talking about for the last, I don't know, 15, 20 years?
You and I, Matt? Yes. So anyway, he wrote a book, it's called How to Know a Person, The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. Hello! That's what we've been talking about for two decades and for four years on our podcast. And
MATT: I'd love to really delve into this book, but that's not why we're here today.
Fawn: Please explain. What the heck, Matt?
MATT: Okay, so, everybody's heard of this silly test called the Myers Briggs test, or the Briggs Myers test. And it's a test that was invented Years ago, I want to say it was the 50s, but who knows, and it's supposed to give you a four letter acronym that all means something. So I took it, and I'm an INTJ, an Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judger.
Fawn: Interruption. [00:05:00] The Myers Briggs test was proven to be a total, fake. Yes,
MATT: and I was, I was just about to launch into that.
Fawn: Okay, thank you. I just wanted to make sure we put that out there because I hate tests. Sorry. Anyways,
MATT: but they figured out it's hooey, and psychologists Hooey. came up with Their own test, which is the one we took, and it's the Big Five Personality Test.
Fawn: Go ahead, honey.
MATT: So anyways, that's our show today. Thanks, folks. No, no. I hate it.
Fawn: I do. I feel so offended. Offended? But I want you to explain to me what we did and what it all means. and what this has to do with friendship. Please do explain, honey. Well,
MATT: this is a way of really Coming to grips and try and understand somebody on a Fundamental level away from perhaps experience.
Honestly,
Fawn: what does that mean? Fundamental as [00:06:00] opposed to experience. Is that what you
MATT: said? Yeah, because people people tend to get jaded by their experiences. And this isn't like you're trying to find someone who just, who agrees with your political beliefs or follows the same sports teams or shares your interests.
It's just understanding these numbers help you get along with somebody because you kind of understand how they're going through the world. Okay. And basically what you do is you get numbers on five. Because it's called the Big Five Test on five different scales.
Fawn: Okay, what are the five
MATT: scales? Okay, so the acronym is OCEAN. O C E A N. Mm hmm.
Fawn: I'm taking notes.
, so the O is for openness.
MATT: And you run the gamut between being inventive and curious to consistent and cautious. No, there's nothing particularly wrong with either side of that coin. It's just having an understanding
Fawn: of it. Okay, wait. So, openness is for inventiveness and curious versus what [00:07:00] and cautious?
MATT: Consistent and cautious. Consistent. Okay. So, someone who is regarded as being open is, can be prone to intuitive leaps and someone who Has a very low score on openness. It's gonna be very cautious and consistent about how they go through
Fawn: things All right, let's use my score as a guinea pig Even though guinea pig even though I am totally against all this.
I don't think it's accurate for me I was first of all tired and pissed off Pissed off meaning I was not drunk That's another term in the UK in America when you say pissed off it means you're Angry in the UK apparently when I was living there. It means you're drunk. It means you're yeah, you had too much to drink No, I was upset So, where did I the guinea pig come in for openness?
Mm hmm. Where did you come in? I don't know you took the numbers down. I
MATT: did take the numbers down. You [00:08:00] came in at a high 90 Which means what which means that you are very Inventive and curious.
Fawn: Okay, that's true. I thought you were gonna say I was, well, I'm also Cautious? But you know what?
I'm also consistent and cautious. Are you, though?
MATT: Yes, I am. Okay. Okay, let's go to cooking for just one moment, right? Oh my gosh. Following the recipe, right? Oh, wait, no. Do you ever make the same thing the same way?
Fawn: Never. Why? Why would I?
MATT: Hmm, that doesn't sound very
Fawn: consistent. I'm consistent in my inconsistency.
I am consistent in not following any particular way. I'm consistent.
MATT: Anywho. What? Moving on. Fine,
Fawn: whatever. Okay,
MATT: next. So "C" in ocean stands for? Conscientiousness, which is a big word. The higher you score, the more efficient and organized you [00:09:00] are. The lower you score, the more extravagant and careless you are.
Okay. Nothing wrong with either one of those either, though. Serious?
Fawn: Seriously. Okay, so, where did I come up? 75. That means I'm careless?
MATT: No, that means you're efficient and organized. That's
Fawn: true. I like all the mason jars to face the same
MATT: way. Oh my god, and yet, ironically, See, we haven't even talked about my scores.
But, uh, I scored higher on this one than you
Fawn: did. So you're more efficient than I am? Yes.
MATT: Because I don't need all the jars to face the same direction, I just need to grab the thing. And if it's there, the muscle memory tells me exactly where it is. So when you go moving things in my kitchen and I can't find anything, I get frustrated.
Fawn: I don't move things all the time, but we have a small space, and when we get something, I have to reorganize her everything, I do, and then I go and have a family meeting, I'm like, listen everybody, the salt jar is now over here, and [00:10:00] the garlic jar is now over here. I'm like, did everyone understand that?
And I go to each person, yes, yes, yes. And then, a few days later, somebody's screaming, Where's the garlic jar? Exactly. Where I specifically said, Hey, we had a meeting, the jar's over here now. I can't win. What am I supposed to do in a small kitchen? It's your fault you got a small kitchen. You willed it into existence.
Just you wait. Small house. Tiny house. Tiny house, you said. Just wait. What do you mean? Nevermind. What are
MATT: you talking about? Nevermind. Oh my god. Anyways. Anywho. So, moving on. So we're at E? E. Am I spelling that
Fawn: right? O C E N. Okay, E. Yes, that's how you spell ocean, darling. Thanks, honey. It's a good thing you have me.
To tie my shoes? I have you to tie my shoes.
MATT: E is for extroversion. So that is actually, now they're starting to play in Myers Briggs territory for just a [00:11:00] second because they define introverts and extroverts, as does this test. So high score, you're outgoing and energetic. Low score, you are solitary and reserved.
By the way, we ended up taking the test on a site called something very close to truity.
So on this extroversion scale, you scored a 77. Again, nice and high. So what does that mean? That means you're extroverted. You're outgoing and energetic. Outgoing?
Fawn: Depends when you catch me during the day. Heyo! It's true
MATT: though, right? It's true, Ro. Ro Ro. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh dear.
Fawn: Well, I, you know what?
I don't know. See, I don't like to be put into a
MATT: category. Just one. Nobody likes to be put into just one category. We all are outside the box. Matt,
Fawn: for me to be outgoing, I need solitary time.
MATT: Which is why you're only a 77 and not like a 99. [00:12:00]
Fawn: How old are you? I actually was a 54. Oh, so I'm more outgoing than you?
Yes, you are and you
MATT: are. That's okay fine. Oh, that's true. Wait. I'm sorry. What was that? Did you say that's true again? You're fighting science. So good luck.
Fawn: A. What's A? O, C, E. E A.
MATT: What's A? A is agreeableness. Friendly and compassionate. High score, low score. Critical and rational. Okay, what
Fawn: did I get? Ninety.
I'm friendly? Yes. Well, that's good. Again, depends. When you catch me. Very nice. Don't ask me to drive you to the airport. Or pick you up from the airport.
Where did you fit in
MATT: here? 77. So I'm reasonably, friendly and compassionate. Mm hmm. Mm
Fawn: hmm. I'm just gonna be quiet.
MATT: Now this is the one that freaks everybody out, so. Everybody take a breath. Everybody hates this word. Yeah. Alright. But it's, yeah. [00:13:00] Never mind.
So, N is neuroticism, and everybody's like, Oh my god, I'm a neurotic. Oh dear, what does that even mean? What does that
Fawn: mean? Yeah, do the definition first, because I really hate this word also. Right, everybody
MATT: does. High score, you are sensitive and nervous. Low score you are resilient and confident now.
Everybody's gonna look at this and say well, I want to be resilient and confident
Fawn: I'm like a Chihuahua and a squirrel. I'm very nervous all the time. Well and sensitive I can feel earthquakes before they happen I can feel war before it happens if I'm at a grocery store I feel the next aisle. I'm like we gotta go home right now.
Mm hmm. You know what I'm saying, right?
MATT: Absolutely I get it and and this is important because you need People who are sensitive, who are paying attention to everything. Alright. And you do need those people who go through life completely clueless, which is of course the other end of the scale.
Fawn: Okay, so where did I fit
MATT: in here?[00:14:00]
Well, you see, you are only a 54 on this. What does that mean? Smack dab in the middle.
Fawn: Okay, well What do you think? You know me. Sorta. You think you do. But what do you think? Do you think that's accurate?
MATT: I think you could probably stand to gain 10 points on that, but only 10. On which side? 64
Fawn: instead of 54.
Like I'm more sensitive and nervous? Mm hmm. Like I said, I feel like a
MATT: squirrel. But the trick is, is we've been through some stuff. And I think as you go through stuff, your score goes down.
Fawn: I think your score goes down looking at you from the outside. Maybe. But inside, I'm more nervous than I've ever been. Are
MATT: you though? Yeah. At this moment in time, right now, are you? Yeah. I would argue no. That's because you're
Fawn: seeing me from the outside. Yep. Maybe. I'm freaking out all the time on the inside.
Okay.
MATT: Says, says the person who's standing over here, [00:15:00] standing tall at 31. I, I
Fawn: get it. So you're more resilient and confident. Yes. And again, when teenagers take this test, it's really funny to see their scores. Funny
MATT: as in, like, not funny. It's funny as in weird. It's funny as in uncomfortable. Yes.
Fawn: Yeah, because I think a lot of kids are falling into the extremely sensitive and nervous.
MATT: And that's because, oh my god, I have to write a ten page term paper in two months. Or because the world Or I failed my math test, or Or the world Or the world, yes. I mean Right, they don't have necessarily vocabulary to handle.
Fawn: Alright, so what does David Brooks say about all this? What did he say? He said it's science.
So? That's all he said in this huge book. Like, this is science. Okay. What do we do with this information?
MATT: Exactly. What do you do with that information? Absolutely correct. So keep in mind, like, if you're dealing with somebody who's [00:16:00] extremely open, 96, thank you very much, I'm going to be very, very curious about everything.
And that can be exhausting. Because I've always got a question to ask. Like, if you were to tell me, That's funny, I brought this up when I was out to coffee at the gas station. I was like, You know, you tell me you're a left handed Lithuanian and I'm gonna have some questions for ya.
And what was so funny is I was talking to Mr. Wizard, who's Lithuanian.
Fawn: Don, you guys, every single person, every man at this gas station has a nickname. Do you have a nickname? I don't have a nickname. They haven't graced you with a nickname yet?
MATT: No. Okay. No. I'm sure it's coming, but Kurt wanted to make me junior, Mr.
Wizard. 'cause Mr. Wizard, um, went, took a trip to shoot. He's back. He's back. He's back this week. He went to Florida and he's back this week. Anyways. Okay, so. There is a certain amount of patience you have with somebody who's curious. Like, when I go to a museum, everybody else might be zooming ahead, but if I find [00:17:00] something that scratches my, that I need to have, an itch I need to scratch.
Like, we went to a museum, and this museum was macabre on some level. I found all the macabre stuff. Macabre? Yeah, like, like scary, deathly, creepy.
Fawn: Which museum was this? Was I with you? Yeah, you were with me.
MATT: Where? Um, they had the train layout upstairs.
Fawn: Oh, yeah, the one where we talked about how you guys went in to see that exhibit, but I was all freaked out and I just stayed in the photography section.
And it wasn't photography exhibit, it was just where the photographers had an office at the museum. Remember, I was talking to the guy, the war veteran, and I was talking to him about nature. Thank
MATT: you for your service. Yeah. But anyways, when we were there, I found the mousetrap, which had a crossbow, I found, and I found the sarcophagus that had a glass plate on it and they wanted it buried so you could like look in and see the person when they were dead.
I mean, it's just, [00:18:00] oh my god, but I find this stuff and everybody else just blitzed right by it and didn't even. Oh,
Fawn: I didn't. I saw it. I'm like, I just had to cover my eye. I'm like, I don't want to see this. But anyways. Which was me most of that museum by the way. So, macabre? Yeah. Is that a word you made up?
MATT: No, M A C A B R mean? What does it mean? It means like scary and deathly, but I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong.
Fawn: Huh, okay. Macabre, how do you spell that?
MATT: M A C A B R E.
Fawn: Is it someone's
MATT: name? No. Okay. I think it's French. But, I don't know. Macaw. I don't know. I'm probably mispronouncing it as the problem.
So anyways, that's, that's on the openness scale. If you're dealing with somebody who is not conscientious at all, then you need to realize that, you know, they're, they're gonna be careless. Careless with lots of things. Careless, maybe, with feelings. Careless with, money. Careless with So,
Fawn: and not to take that
MATT: [00:19:00] personally, right?
Right. And not to take it, yeah, exactly. Not to take it personally. But also be aware of it. And monitor and make sure that you can find a level of comfort inside of it. Because that's how they're wired. And if you want to hang out with this person You know, but of course this all infers that they're actually going to quote unquote take the test, which of course you can't just say, Hey, buddy, can you take this test
Fawn: for me?
However, if we see someone truly or listen to them truly, you can. You can suss them out. You can suss them out. Right. And that's just getting to know someone and really paying attention so you don't have to take a test. Right. But instead of being so offended or taking things personally, if we just look at someone and ask these questions of ourselves, like bring in the ocean into our consciousness and figure out, what kind of person is this?
How does their train of thought maneuver? You won't be hurt as
MATT: much. Exactly. And of course I'm coming at this [00:20:00] having scored a 90 in conscientiousness, but I can see where my efficient and organized self drives people a little
Fawn: nutty. That's interesting. You don't care about mace and jars facing a certain way, but the person better be on time.
They better. There are so many things that are equivalent to me having jars face a certain way, but on a spiritual and emotional level. You better have things facing a certain way, or you get really upset. Mm hmm. So
MATT: And, and I'll get really upset with myself if I take notes on everything. Right.
Especially, well, I take notes on everything for work. And I've got it all in this crazy, organized, whatever it is, right? And I recognize it's absurd. But I know everything I do every single day. Jesus, really? For work.
Fawn: Right. No, I mean at home, too, or just in, in regular life also. So, I'm just now fully understanding that, I think, [00:21:00] or starting to, this moment as we're talking.
Because, yeah, you let things go with the mason jars. You're like, okay, she's nuts with that. Yep. Let's just all Everybody has to face the jars this way. Unless you guys mess with me, which you do, like you purposely move things around on me. Like have it be askew or not facing a certain way. Just to get me going.
And it does. But, yeah, but like, I have to have the same patience that you have with me with the jars. When, like when it comes to time, or when it comes to your word. You said this, you better do it. You know what I'm saying? Yes. It's the same thing. It is. So you and I are like yin and yang. It seems like we're opposite, but we have that in common where things need to be just so.
Yes. Which is a pain.
MATT: Except for I literally, it's the things I care about and I literally care about 10
Fawn: percent of things. Yeah, you've always said that to me. Like, I don't care about the jars. Fine. If you want it that [00:22:00] way, fine. So now I'm realizing, oh, I have to do the same for you when it comes to these other things.
Like, give me some examples, Matt. Well, being on time. Being
MATT: on time. I know that one. Uh, I like to know schedules.
Fawn: Oh, expectation. You always say. Set my expectations. So, I'm like, hey, let's go to Trader Joe's. It'll just be a quick 20 minutes and then we're an hour and 15 minutes and you're fuming because I didn't set my The expectations.
Because it's bad. Had I said an hour and fifteen minutes, you would have been totally cool with it. Totally fine. But, I'm like, it'll just be a click trait. And it's not. And then you get totally upset. Understandably so. But, yeah. I have to understand that. Alright, don't look at me like that. I'm saying I am trying.
It's science. I'm trying. Stop it. Ha
MATT: ha ha ha
Fawn: ha ha. Alrighty
MATT: then. Uh, and then, extraversion, the E. [00:23:00] Understand when somebody needs time to themselves. You know, when they get power from, when they get energy from being with people, when they get energy from being by themselves. And everybody runs the gamut, but.
Fawn: And first with yourself. Realizing that about yourself. Right, that is true. So then you have the capacity to understand someone else, right, you have the energy to see it in other people,
MATT: right, right? And you know You start to see this in my life where I get up god awful early so I can start work and be left alone And I can be efficient and organized and get stuff done and I'm totally fine being all by myself doing it So those two things start sinking together sinking up together And then agreeableness To me, boils down to on some level, for me, how far is somebody willing to go to win an argument, on some level, but, how easygoing you can possibly be to let things go.
and again, that's friendly versus critical. Right.
Fawn: Why are you
MATT: laughing? Nothing, because now we get to N, which [00:24:00] is the scary, scary one for everyone. Neurotic. How sensitive and nervous versus resilient and confident you are. But again, having an understanding that somebody is sensitive means you need to be, more caring and more loving.
And go through more explanations, and I failed that one last night, but, you know.
Fawn: No, no sudden movements. No, uh, no sudden changes.
MATT: Right. Right. Right. And, and like, you know, if you ever come to somebody and you deadpan say, oh man, you're not going to believe this. Their mind's gonna go in 27 different terrible directions.
Or, we
Fawn: need to talk. Like the first thing.
MATT: Or, oh my gosh. Or say you were, say, about to ask out your future wife on a first date and you say, Fawn, I like you. We should go out. No, you didn't say that. Your brain can't process that. All you heard was,
Fawn: Fawn. Yeah, I'm in trouble with the principal. Oh my gosh. A deer in headlights.
[00:25:00] Right. Alright, so we understand that. That's a lot to Process. That's a lot to process. That's like, let me see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 things to keep in mind. 5 things.
MATT: So do yourself a favor, take like 5 7 minutes, find yourself a big 5 personality test, take a look at it. Or just, Agree, disagree, let us
Fawn: know. Or just, sense it out for yourself.
It's openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeability. Is that a word? It is,
MATT: but I went with agreeableness.
Fawn: Agreeableness. And neuroticism. Neuroticism. I can't even pronounce that. Alright. Well, should we leave it here? That's a lot to think about. That is tons to think about. We've been thinking about it for weeks.
It's been driving me nuts. Hey o. Sounds good. As I grind my teeth. Alright, guys, what do you think? How do you fall into this? Question, though, before we go. Brutero. Do you think friends [00:26:00] Who operate the same way, like they're on the same scale. Is that a good friendship or the other way around? I guess it depends.
Like can I be friends with someone who is completely, I don't know, one of my friends is totally the opposite. Like if you think about, I don't know. On all of these? No, but like let's say agreeableness, right? They're very critical. Mm hmm. If you think of like our friend.. Mm hmm.
Very critical. Right. Upon first meeting her, right? But for me to be agreeable and turn things over to her and let her be critical Mm hmm. Enough to be heard, then she's open to me. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. And she becomes more friendly with me because most people are afraid of that.
Right. And don't know how to dance with that. Right. Whereas critical, if you really look at it, like if you think about it, Martha Stewart is probably very critical. Oh, yeah, but you wouldn't call a man like that critical. You would say, well, he's a good businessman, right? I'd say they were [00:27:00] critical.
To be critical, you're trying to create something with a precise vision. Yes. So you need to be critical.
MATT: Right. Absolutely. I completely and utterly agree. 100%. And I respect that. Absolutely. So do I.
Fawn: Okay. Anyway. , it's a dance.
It's a dance. It's a dance. It is. Alright. Love you, thanks for listening. Just a quick show today. Remember when we used to have an hour and a half shows? Yes. An hour and a half, an hour and a half long shows. Alright, I don't know what it is. Since our move, everything's been on fast
MATT: forward. Well, it's cold.
We record in the basement now and it's cold down here. But it's also
Fawn: hot during the summer so we're like, it's too hot, let's get out of here. Alright, no, but there's a lot to do. Time, have you all noticed how time has been speeding up? So everything is on super fast forward. So, we gotta, cram it in as much as we can in, like, 30 minutes now.
I miss our long, shows. Anyway, talk to you guys in just a little bit if you need us before then, you know how to reach us. [00:28:00] Ourfriendlyworldpodcast. com We'll talk to you in just a few days. Have a beautiful every day, guys. Be well. Bye. See you later.
