Episode Transcript
Mentor TorMENTOR
FAWN: [00:00:00] we explore four questions
Can a friend be a mentor, and can a mentor become a friend? When does tough love become cruelty? How do we recognize a true mentor? And what do we do when someone we trusted becomes a tormentor, a tormentor? How to recognize patterns. How do we speak up? When to set boundaries or how to set boundaries? When to seek another perspective or walk away? How do we know when to walk away.
Can we acknowledge what someone taught us without continuing to accept how they treat us? I think on all different levels, these questions come into play within friendship, and that's what we're exploring. Thank you for tuning in. Here we go Welcome back, everybody.
MATT: Hello.
FAWN: Welcome to our friendly world.
Here we go. Okay, Matt. What-
MATT: It's gonna be a real light one [00:01:00] today, huh?
FAWN: Yeah. It's not dark. I mean, we talked about this last week a little bit, about how someone who is not good , a tormentor can actually teach us and be a mentor. Like, I learned how to set boundaries for real, like physical boundaries with a terrible neighbor.
But I also am learning the more... That words are so powerful. So for me to speak ill of this wo- woman, I'm no longer going to do that because it gives her more power. It adds to her evilness if I keep saying she's this. You know what I'm saying?
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: So on, uh, in so many levels, like the power of the word and the boundaries and looking at learning things, everything is related to how we grow together and how we live together, how we have friendships, all of it.
MATT: True. [00:02:00]
FAWN: But you, you w- you're the one who actually wanted to speak more about this, so let's go. Do it quick because we have to take the kid somewhere.
MATT: I understand. Yeah, I actually wanted to start, hmm, with someone who should have been a mentor. My, math teacher when I was 15, Mr., swear to goodness, not a pseudonym, Mr.
Joint. So Algebra 2 Trig, welcome to, hey, I'm a smarty, I know my math, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Part of what he wanted us to do every single week, we had a weekly exam, and on Friday... No, it was a biweekly exam, and every other Friday, we had to turn in, we had to give him our notes, and he expected them to be all pretty, and he would grade us on them as we were taking our exam.
And he would literally spend four seconds per batch of notes, and I always got, like, a B. And then one day he challenged me. He was like, "Matt, why [00:03:00] don't you do them in color? Why don't you spice it up? Why don't you..." And I was like, "Oh my goodness." 15, all right? I'm just starting to get a little angry. Uh, so I did
FAWN: You did what?
You got angry or you used colors?
MATT: I used colors. I made them all pretty. I got the same mother loving grade out of it. Didn't matter.
FAWN: Well, he, he didn't tell you that he would, you would get a better grade. He said, "Just try this." What's your problem?
MATT: You're gonna get me angry, woman.
FAWN: Okay. All right.
MATT: But basically, looking back now, I mean, I was very frustrated and upset about the whole thing because I did, I tried.
I didn't half-ass it. I used my whole ass And got the exact same grade. And looking back, I realized what he taught me was don't let anybody diminish you.
FAWN: How do you do that? [00:04:00]
MATT: Well, I could have felt, because I put so much into it and he gave me the same grade, I could have just been defeated.
FAWN: I mean, I choose to look at that as, you know what?
Do your very best. Make things wonderful, and it's not about the grade, it's about making your own life better.
MATT: My notes were perfectly adequate in black and white. They did not need to be in color. And I did that to please him, and it didn't, so shine it And I never did color again.
FAWN: But color is so important to you.
MATT: Not for math notes.
FAWN: Okay. All right.
MATT: So that was number one. That's the first one that came to mind. And the other one is very nuanced, and it's all over the place and takes place over years. So my, second bestest friend started junior high school, so I'm what, [00:05:00] 12? Had to wait at the bus stop to go to the school.
And before that I had walked. You had to wait
FAWN: or he had to wait?
MATT: I had... Well, he had to wait too 'cause we lived in the same tract. Okay.
FAWN: Got it.
MATT: But he was at a different bus stop than me. There was two bullies at my bus stop, and every day they would sweat me. Every single day.
FAWN: How old were you?
MATT: Mm, 12, and they were 13.
But keep in mind, I'm also a small 12, and I was 11 probably then, I guess.
FAWN: Why is it all the little guys who grow up to be giants? Like, you're 6'4" and highly intimidating looking.
MATT: Well.
FAWN: What?
MATT: But they were, like, 13.
FAWN: Yeah.
MATT: Anyways, and you know, it starts with small stuff, and you try and ignore it, and you're just waiting for the bus to get there.
And, , they talk a little smack, and then they talk a little more smack because they're empowered, which is part of the key. And there was two of them
And so I went to my friend and I was like, "Hey, what should I do?" No advice. I was like, "Hey, can you wait with me at my bus stop?" 'Cause the, the distance to the bus stops was similar [00:06:00] for him. He told me no.
FAWN: Was he scared?
MATT: I don't know. Doesn't matter.
FAWN: Yeah. '
MATT: Cause he would, he wouldn't have admitted if he would've been.
FAWN: Right.
MATT: Now I'm going out of my way not to actually say his name, but-
FAWN: Well, I mean, you're asking someone to go to war with you. Right. So what's in it for him?
MATT: Well, '
FAWN: cause- So he wasn't really a friend
MATT: You just cut to the end of my story
FAWN: Oh, I'm sorry Oh my
MATT: goodness
FAWN: I'm sorry. Never mind. Never- Oh. No, keep going.
I'm sorry.
MATT: So anyways, so I'm dealing with the two tormentors up, all up in my face, and then I realized, 'cause it w- I was starting to get a little disheartened. I was starting to feel diminished, obvious- well, not obviously. I was starting to feel diminished, and that's when you know that a mentor has turned into a tormentor, and these were definitely tormentors.
FAWN: Mm-hmm.
MATT: And so I came up with a solution because I had to. Uh-oh. I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna go to my folks. I wasn't gonna go... Obviously my friend cast me adrift, so I had to come up with a solution.
FAWN: Uh-oh. Is this a Fawn solution?
MATT: No.
FAWN: Thank goodness. It's
MATT: a Matt [00:07:00] solution.
FAWN: What was it?
MATT: Use the old noggin. So I left, I left to go get the bus about seven minutes earlier, and I walked to the other bus stop.
I avoided the whole situation. And that's what I did, and I did that all that year in seventh grade. I did it the entire year of my seventh grade year because the bullies wouldn't walk to the other bus stop.
FAWN: Interesting. I wonder why. Lazy?
MATT: Convenience.
FAWN: Right. Wow.
MATT: Yes. But now fast-forward, three years and I'm in high school.
This person is still my best friend.
FAWN: This what?
MATT: Yes.
FAWN: After he said no to you?
MATT: Yep.
FAWN: Why?
MATT: Because we lived close together, and we hung out in the summers, and he was nice enough, and-
FAWN: But he didn't... Okay.
MATT: He was unwilling to go to war with me. Yes.
FAWN: No. Okay, go [00:08:00] ahead. And then- It's funny how we've switched roles because back then you better have not, I better not have had a pencil on me.
Because I mean, I had various different kinds of, uh, tormentors- Mm-hmm ... but I took care of business like a thug.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: And you wouldn't expect it 'cause I was like the littlest, you know, sweetest looking little girl. But you know, you push me so far, then w- look out.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Now I'm like, you know, I don't know.
Now I'm like, I'd... Now I would walk to the other pl- you know, I, I would try to avoid it.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Because I know, also having studied martial arts, now I know my, my true nature that I will fight. Like, I don't care if I get dirty And, uh, that scares me, so I avoid that.
Like, I know the consequences and I'm like, [00:09:00] "Oh my gosh."
MATT: And here's the switch. So he started, he started becoming my tormentor. We were friends.
FAWN: This, this friend who wouldn't-
MATT: This friend ...
FAWN: come, come to bat with you?
MATT: When we were in groups, he was constantly trying to put me down.
FAWN: Really?
MATT: Yeah, I don't know why.
To this day, I don't understand why.
FAWN: He was jealous of you.
MATT: I have no... No, I don't, I don't know.
FAWN: Yeah.
MATT: And then one day, I just snapped on him.
FAWN: Good.
MATT: And
FAWN: if- I would've snapped on him the day he said no ...
MATT: if he had raised his hands up to me that day, it would've been terrible for him- Yeah ... and me.
FAWN: Yeah. Whoops.
MATT: Ultimately.
FAWN: Okay.
MATT: But I should have seen it coming from the before time. You're absolutely right when you called me out on it, but welcome to being 11. Anyways, and that was it. Our friendship was over, and that was it.
FAWN: Good.
MATT: Yes.
FAWN: Get out of here.
MATT: Hey-o.
FAWN: Ugh, I feel angry.
MATT: I was angrified, that's for sure.
FAWN: No, [00:10:00] I'm angry at, like, you know, the 11-year-old one.
You know what I'm saying?
MATT: Of me going to the other bus stop? I thought
FAWN: that was a smart move. No, no, no. I'm angry at the guy. No, it is a smart move, but- What? Was he smaller than you? I feel like he was smaller than you. We were a
MATT: similar size. He was older than I was-
FAWN: This fr- ... '
MATT: cause everybody was ...
FAWN: so-called friend.
MATT: Yeah.
FAWN: Really. Really?
MATT: Yeah.
FAWN: How'd you get so tall? How come that didn't happen to me?
MATT: Okay, in a later show we're gonna talk about outliers, but I was always young for my grade. Oh. I was always gonna be this height- That is true ... but I was always young for my grade.
FAWN: November
MATT: baby. Born in November.
FAWN: Got it.
MATT: So- Yep
yes. Yep,
FAWN: yep.
MATT: Theoretically, um, maybe I should've been held back, but the cutoff date was just after.
FAWN: So you started school earlier than you should have?
MATT: Well, no, I started school-
FAWN: Yeah ...
MATT: as early as anybody could.
FAWN: Right. Anyway, we'll talk about this on another show.
MATT: Yes, we will.
FAWN: Okay. About how, three months makes a big [00:11:00] difference on everything.
Okay. All right. So okay, end of that.
MATT: End of that.
FAWN: Coulda told you from day one at the bus stop that was the end of that.
MATT: Well, yeah, but it took three more years for me to figure that one out.
FAWN: Got it.
MATT: But, I mean, your first friendships, and he was technically, I think, my second best friend, but your first friendships, I mean, you, you, you don't think about it.
You just exist inside of it, inside of whatever the it is.
FAWN: Mm-hmm.
MATT: And there were some wonderful things about those friendships 'cause, um, you know, my first best friend was not a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, so, you know, getting into, like, hanging out with him, you know, having meals with his family, and all that kind of stuff, I learned different ways of doing things, but without, with the naiveté of not putting, all the energy that you have with all of whatever your family traditions are.
So you were just able to accept it and live [00:12:00] inside of it.
FAWN: Mm-hmm.
MATT: Which has proven, you know, extremely valuable and extremely liberating.
FAWN: So can we go to the question of how do we know When someone we trusted becomes a tormentor, because sometimes it happens in slow motion or it happens in ways we don't see right away. Like, how do you recognize the patterns? And then how do you know when to actually speak up or set the physical boundaries all of a sudden?
Do you know what I... For me, it's all of a sudden because my boundaries seem to have always been open.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: Where my lesson has been put up some stakes and go, "You can't cross here." You know, most people tend to do that from the beginning, whereas I'm an open door policy- Well, people who do it from the be-
or I used to be ...
MATT: beginning, it always feels uncomfortable. Like if they
FAWN: tell you- Wait, I, I was talking when you said that. What, what, what feels uncomfortable?
MATT: When people tell you where their boundaries are.
FAWN: Oh, yeah.
MATT: I-
FAWN: It's kinda rude.
MATT: It, it feels that
FAWN: way. But, but it's good. You know right away, like, here's [00:13:00] the gate.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: You have to ring the doorbell to get in, or you need to knock, you know, knock this way.
MATT: But I wanna be special. Everybody wants to be special. Everybody wants to be special. And everybody wants to feel special and, and starting to become friends with somebody and hearing that makes you feel less special.
FAWN: Okay. Well, okay, so my question. I grew up with a family that had no boundaries, and they were tormentors. And, it took me a very long time, way into my adulthood, to finally set boundaries, and I... And, and the best way I could was to remove myself from the situation, much like how you went to a different bus stop.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: I had to completely cut myself off from the entire family, including, like, all the relatives-
MATT: Right ...
FAWN: just in case, you know? Mm-hmm. It's a tight-knit culture. You can't not speak to someone and speak to someone else in the family. Do you know what I'm [00:14:00] saying?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: So I just left. To this day, like, no one knows-
if I'm on the planet or anything. But, you know, it's interesting. I, I really value you, of course. That's why we're partners. But, like, when do you, Matt, know when to seek a different perspective when someone you trust or you're in a situation where it's like family, you know what I'm saying? Or a, a best friend.
Sometimes you just hear so many inputs, so much input from everybody, from the world, that it's hard to hear what you yourself should be doing. But when do you see the pa- Like, what patterns do you see? And then how do you know to get a different perspective or to actually walk away, like separate yourself completely?
MATT: Right, which is a great question
FAWN: Like, you know, like you can't treat me like this.
MATT: Right. Right. And, and for me it's, it's, it's [00:15:00] incredibly, it feels nuanced at this point.
FAWN: And then, and then how can you say to yourself even when someone has tormented you so much and has disrespected you so much, for you to go, " Wow, this, they taught me, so they were actually a mentor."
How... Like, you have to, in a way, accept how they treated you, and that's hard to do. I mean, I just did that with a neighbor, but, you know, every time I feel like, "Okay, I'm good now. I, I see, I see what it is," I get triggered again. Mm-hmm. And then I have to start all over, like, in my own head, like, "Uh-oh, here I go again."
Do you know what I'm saying? Like- I
MATT: do ...
FAWN: let, let me just separate myself and not react so, so much where my heart stops. Like, my heart is pounding so hard it's not healthy. Do you know what I'm saying?
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: Anyway.
MATT: Right. You- I don't know. It's hard ... you, you asked two questions. Number one is how do you start recognizing, you know, welcome to my world, I live in a pattern-oriented world.[00:16:00]
But I also live inside of, I try and focus every single day, honest, physical, mental, and spiritual. I attempt to, I spend time focusing on every s- each one of those. And when I'm hyper into the mental or I'm shifting out of the physical and into the mental, I'll go through the exercise of, of replaying conversations that I've had either in the previous day or just previously period, and try and figure out should I have said something better, what was going on here, and trying to get that perspective and trying to, to figure it out.
FAWN: But do you give yourself a certain time limit? Like, "Okay, I'm only s- gonna spend five minutes on this." Because for me- Mm-hmm ... I'll, I'll go years going, "Why did this happen? Why did they say that? Why did... I should have said this. I should have said..." That's why I have outbursts in the shower, and the family's like, "Are you [00:17:00] okay?"
'Cause inside the shower- Right ... like, when I'm I'm like, I'll, I'll react to something from five years ago, like something I should've said, I wish I would've said, and I yell it out in the shower, you know?
MATT: Yeah, but when the-
FAWN: Sometimes followed by some prof- profanity 'cause I'm mad.
MATT: Well, okay, but-
FAWN: When do you, when, how do you-
MATT: stop when you get out of the shower?
FAWN: No, but
MATT: like, do you- That's a natural cutting off point.
FAWN: No, but it's been five, 10 years maybe.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: I'm saying when you go through your day and you relive it, like, "This is what I said. This is what this person said." Like, what, do you, do you put a, a time limit on yourself?
Like, "I'm just gonna think about it once, and then that's it."
MATT: Nope. I don't. I don't because- So do
FAWN: you dwell on it for years?
MATT: No, but I sometimes I'll dredge stuff. Sometimes my subconscious will dredge stuff up Bleh. Dredge stuff up for me.
FAWN: Do you find yourself repeating a pattern then? Does- Sometimes ... do patterns come back for you?
I know they do in certain things.
MATT: Sometimes,
FAWN: for sure. I'm like, "Matt, this is a [00:18:00] pattern." Yep. "Can we clear it, please?"
MATT: Nope.
FAWN: That's what he says, you guys. Nope. Like, look, it's an obvious pattern and I don't see patterns, but here's one I- ... if I'm seeing it, can we please clear it? And you're so stubborn.
MATT: Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Why do you wanna hold on to it? Sometimes I'm not ready to. Ugh. Sometimes I'm not.
FAWN: Fr- so frustrating.
MATT: I know. I know, absolutely. Uh, but yeah, no, I'll go through conversations that I had had years and years ago, or, you know, of all sorts, and this includes voice messages, conversations, emails, the whole kit and caboodle.
This is all forms of communication I've had externally I will go over. And usually it's a conversation where I feel ultimately that I find myself wanting or I find out that I'm not... I had no idea what was really happening. Like, I used to talk to people... I went to UC Santa Cruz, a lot of drug use going on [00:19:00] there.
I would talk to people who were high like they weren't high, because I literally couldn't tell, because that was, that wasn't really part of my reality or what I was thinking about.
FAWN: Me too. So- I hung out with people who were on acid, and we spent a whole night going from club to glu- club, and I was always the only sober person, and I would find out two weeks later everyone was high on ecstasy or, like, tripping on acid.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: And they would tell me that they were barely keeping up with me, 'cause I have a weird imagination and I can have fun in a trash bag if I wanted to. Hey. Do you know what I'm saying? Like- I do ... I had no idea these people were using drugs. It's so weird. Like, I, I didn't see it.
MATT: And that's what highlighted to me the fact that I really needed to replay conversations and, and really think through with a bigger perspective things.
Like, as it turns out, there was a girl who had a crush on me in high school, and I so didn't know. Not at all. [00:20:00] And I wasn't purposefully trying to be, you know, negative towards her, but I ended up saying, "Wow, you, you did not, you did not do right by her." Like you didn't, yeah. That was bogus. And it was because I w- I didn't understand or there's a naiveté or any of the rest of it, but I still feel some shame over that one.
FAWN: Well, we don't know. We've lost the art of, or we were never taught the art of courtship with friends and also in romantic con- in, in romantic situations. You know, I wanna say the reason we started to finally date was because you were very clear. "Fawn, I like you. I wanna go out on a date with you." Where I was used to, like, I would never assume someone liked me, and they would have...
I had this one guy, like, half an inch away from my face w- his lips puckered, and I still didn't think he wanted to kiss me, and I didn't do [00:21:00] anything, and he got all mad. I mean, not mad like, "How dare..." But you know what I'm saying? Right. He, he felt, um, he felt really like, "Okay, she's not interested." And I didn't realize this until a year later.
Right. Like, oh, he was trying to kiss me.
MATT: Hey, see, you went through the mad exercise right there. It took you a year to sort it out-
FAWN: Yeah, but I don't think- ... but you did ... but, uh, you know what? It would be nice to know what's happening as it's happening, you know, and not think about it five, 10, 15 million years from now.
Well,
MATT: that's true. That's
FAWN: why- I just wanna let it go. There are always things that are happening in life as it's happening right now this second. I feel like what a waste of time to be dw- dwelling on things from the past. Can we just have a clear mind so we don't have a lot of clutter?
MATT: Right, and I don't, but it also-
FAWN: Yeah, you do sometimes
MATT: when I have a similar situation come up or I'm on the other side of it, it's nice to have clarity. It's nice to pr- be able to provide clarity.
FAWN: Yeah.
MATT: And I know I'm speaking a little esoterically here, [00:22:00] but, like, one of my coworkers just started. It's a woman. I was very nice to her, and I was like, "Oh, God, she better not think I'm interested in her in any way."
And so I brought up my wife in a conversation. We're simple. We're done.
FAWN: Mm.
MATT: It'll never be an issue. We're good because people aren't necessarily nice where I work , like friendly nice.
FAWN: So-
MATT: But anyways, how do we, how do we get over a tormentor, I think was the final question?
FAWN: Well, I mean, d- yeah, and then how do we even recognize a mentor?
MATT: Well, we learn lessons all the time, so it's, it's, for me it's not about identifying a person as a person or an event as being a learning experience because every interaction you have with someone is, has, it has that potential or might
FAWN: be that. I, I was gonna say, I was gonna say I don't like the whole idea of like, "This is your mentor."
I, I feel like all humans, even squirrels and dogs, like [00:23:00] all beings are mentors, and for someone to have like a higher status, I don't like that, and I don't see things that way, so that's why I think all relationships are mentors.
MATT: Right. Exactly. Have the potential anyways-
FAWN: Yeah ...
MATT: of, of a learning experience.
But how do we get over a tormentor or a bad experience? I think it, I think the ultimate bad experience is heartbreak, and for me, heartbreak, you get over heartbreak, uh, uh, time is a big factor.
FAWN: Mm. Yes, but I've had situations where I'm like, "Okay, God, please take away the pain," and I didn't have to go through weeks and weeks of feeling torment, like heartbreak.
It was just like, "Oh, it's over," and I felt clear. I, I didn't have to go through like the crying or any... I was just done. It was wonderful because I actually [00:24:00] recognized the idea of asking God or whoever you wanna call it, please take the pain away, let me move on. It worked. I walked free. I was like, "La, la, la, la, la."
It was fantastic. And it was a serious relationship. Mm-hmm. I
MATT: mean,
FAWN: I was engaged to this fool. You know what I'm
MATT: saying? Not, not, not this fool,
FAWN: folks. No, not you. But also, um, another thing I want... Did we, did we just answer the question, the last one, do you think?
MATT: Uh, working on it.
FAWN: Okay. Can you wrap it up? I have another question.
MATT: See, for me, uh, again, later I had, I had someone I believed was my friend, and he, he thrashed me, and it took me 20 minutes to get over it. And that was that. Because I had dwelled on the other experiences, because I had had two previous bestest, bestest [00:25:00] friends, bosom buddies, you know, BFFs forever, burn me.
FAWN: Right.
MATT: So I had learned my lesson, and I had figured out what to do.
FAWN: So it was like an algebra problem you knew the formula to. Something like- So you're like, "Okay, I know how to solve this."
MATT: Right. Exactly.
FAWN: Or, "This is the pattern." What... Okay, so the last question I have is- When does tough love become cruelty?
Because like in my family, it was just cruel, but I didn't recognize it until I saw many therapists, like the cruelty. Do you know what I'm saying?
MATT: Yes.
FAWN: And I think it could come up even in wonderful friendships. Like I was talking to one of my childhood friends and she got kind of cruel with me, very short and abrupt a few times, and it really hurt.
But I chose not to take it personally. I chose [00:26:00] to think, "Okay, she can't carry this right now."
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: And then as I was having that thought, she said I c- she literally told me in her own words she can't carry that right now because she's trying to focus on A, B, and C, and she can't have that kind of conversation.
And then she also brought up like, for example, I can't carry on a conversation about politics either because her sister is the opposite of her belief in a political party. So she told me she will never have a conversation about anything politically related, anything close to politically touching on anything-
MATT: Mm-hmm
FAWN: with her sister. And I'm like, "Wow. Huh. Okay. She can't carry it." So I, I knew not to take it personally. So the cruelty that I perceived, I realized it, it [00:27:00] could have been directed at me, but I don't have to take it, much like a gift that's offered to you. You don't have to accept every gift.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Right? So that's it for me.
I'm pretty much gonna leave it here.
MATT: Right. And I would just emphasize that by saying tormentor makes you feel smaller. If you're feeling smaller and you feel like there's no hope Get out
FAWN: Agreed. Yeah, all right. All right, yeah. Matt dropped his pen. That's his, um, that's his mic drop. Like he's good, he's done.
He said what he said, and we have to go drive our kids somewhere. So all right, thanks for listening, you guys. Have a beautiful every day. Thank you for listening.
MATT: Be well.
FAWN: Talk to you soon.
MATT: Bye-bye.
