Friendship Fatigue: When Good People Get Hurt and Pull Away

MATT: [00:00:00] racial couple with two kids wanting to do something that highlights the power of friendship and what it means to be in the company of true friends. We're going to move our society away and out of the loneliness epidemic and into a friendlier, happier world. Welcome to Our Friendly World: Better- Better- stronger together ... stronger together. FAWN: Welcome to A Friendly World, Our Friendly World. Welcome back, everybody. MATT: Hey, hey. FAWN: Hello to all of our friends who've been reaching out as I've been reluctant about creating new episodes. I really appreciate you and all of your support. It means a lot, so hello to you. Thank you so much. Yes, indeed. MATT: Hello to you. Thank you. FAWN: Love you. All [00:01:00] right. MATT: All right. FAWN: What do you ha- what's on your mind? MATT: Ha, so I've been reading, shockingly, a weird statistics. FAWN: I hate statistics. You know that. MATT: 8% of, uh, people in America have no close friends, are identifying themselves as having no close friends. FAWN: First of all, I think all these numbers are- ... BS, and I'll tell you, I don't think that's correct. I think it's way higher. We know this from talking to people. When we started this years ago, people were so defiant, and, like, when we were just broaching the subjects- Right ... the subject, not saying, "Hey, you, you don't have any friends," that's how they would take it. They would get so of, uh, defensive, and then we would find out months later, in some way we would find out from them, "Gee, there are no friends. I have no friends. Gee, I'm lonely." Like, people took it [00:02:00] personally, so I think people lie. I don't think that people admit to it. There's no way it's only 8%, absolutely not. And I think people are a little bit delusional- ... because you think, oh, this per- I've done it, too. Like, oh, this is my best friend, and as soon as I say that, something always happens. I'm like, oops, nope. Anyway, so 8%, huh? MATT: Okay, fine. Let's- I FAWN: don't think so ... MATT: moving on. FAWN: All right. Go ahead. MATT: I was reading about summer camps for, uh, grownups. FAWN: Okay. MATT: For like a weekend. FAWN: Uh-huh. MATT: Like, going somewhere, not having TVs or computers. You still have your phone, but you're in the cabin with either one other person or three other people, and, like, you do ropes courses, and there's live music and dancing and drinking. Lots of drinking. Um- Well- Sounds pretty fun. FAWN: It, it, it does sound fun. I remember my friend in the 1990s, we were young. MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: Early adulthood, right? [00:03:00] Um, yeah, my friend did that, and I ... and, and she came to me. She's like, "Oh my God, I had the best summer." I'm like, "What'd you do?" I'm like, "Yeah, I haven't seen you in a while." Like, she was in the neighborhood. Like, I was in Santa Monica. Actually, she was a Venice Beach person. MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: You know, for those of you, like, we, we lived right on the border. Like, you could have one foot, you could have your right foot here and your left foot there. You know, like, you could be split- ... and be in two cities. So anyway, she was Venice, but it w- there was, like, a different vibe. Anyway, so she's like, "Yeah, I went to band camp," and this is before, I think- ... that movie. American Pie. American Pie, right? Back at band camp. No, like she, um, she went to camp for adults, and it was for musicians, and she had the best time and made a bunch of friends, but that was in the '90s. It was in the late '90s. MATT: But there's, there's an agenda there. The [00:04:00] agenda here, which is perhaps to get better at- Oh, tell me the agenda ... at banding and, and- Mm-hmm ... all the rest of that kind of stuff. The agenda here is fun. FAWN: Well, that MATT: was fun FAWN: for them. It's literally MATT: summer camp. FAWN: Yeah, but- I mean, it g- it, I guess it depends on what you're doing. Mm. You could go to space camp, or you could go to math camp or whatever it is. It could be anything. Right. But, so tell me about this camp. MATT: Well, I d- I gave you most of the highlights. They have trapezes. They have- FAWN: You gave that MATT: to me- ... color war ... FAWN: in the kitchen. MATT: Color war, and I already mentioned the ropes course. FAWN: You mentioned to me, so can you please repeat what they have in this band? I mean, in this camp. Go ahead. MATT: Well, there's different types of camps. This one in particular happens to be in New York, so this is the one that I read the article on. But, um, they have chef-cooked meals. They have all the drinking you want, provided you pay an extra 100 bucks, like it's a cruise. Bizarre. FAWN: I find that interesting because already they're putting something in there so people feel loose [00:05:00] in many ways. Um, I ... If I were to do that, I would have different rules. W- I would have ... I would, I would say no alcohol because, first of all, accidents can happen. MATT: True. FAWN: Um, things can be done regretfully because people lose control. MATT: Right. FAWN: And also, it's a Band-Aid you don't need If I were to do that, like a, a f- our Friendly World, like, you know, retreat- Summer MATT: camp ... FAWN: yeah, for people to become friends, I would not have alcohol because I want you to get used to speaking with someone and hanging out with someone in, in many ways. So, you know, the extroverts, the introverts, without the crutch of a drug. MATT: Right. FAWN: I don't think that's okay. MATT: Right. FAWN: And- But you mentioned... I'm sorry, go ahead. MATT: There's a kajillion different adult camps. There are women-only camps. There are, um, family camps. [00:06:00] There are- FAWN: Mm-hmm ... MATT: you know, it, it, it, it runs the gamut. FAWN: Uh, but so you were talking about this one camp, and there's bungee jumping and all this stuff. Mm-hmm. Everything seemed very, like, uh, extreme. MATT: Well- FAWN: And I'm like, you know what? As a person like myself, who feels very stressed out- Right ... and that's not for me. That, uh, even the kind of way to approach another person seems like too much. MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: I would prefer something like... 'Cause y- wh- when you were telling me this, I'm like, "Matt, I don't even wanna hear it. Ugh." Like, I, I dislike it so much that, uh, don't even talk to me about it. I don't, I don't care because it's too much. Like, bungee jumping? How can you bond with someone over bungee jumping? M- maybe, maybe afterwards- Shared experience ... sure, maybe afterwards, but so what? It's, it's not deep. It's like whatever. I mean, it [00:07:00] could be deep if you have the conversation, but that, that's the point, is to have conversation, right? MATT: Well, it's a- FAWN: But, like- ... MATT: certainly a conversation sparker ... FAWN: I don't know. For me personally, as an introvert who needs quiet right now and needs to be still, that's not for me. So what I was telling you, we were outside as you were telling me all the stats and everything, and I'm like, "Ugh, ugh," I was pretty much shooting everything you said down. And here we are. I was thinking to myself, actually, I think, 'cause I was going opposite of what you were saying. MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: So you were saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, bungee jumping." Why do I harp on bungee jumping? There was other stuff in there, like- MATT: The ropes cour- ropes confidence course. There's a color war. There's- FAWN: Everything is war trapeze. Everything is MATT: stressful. There's trapeze. FAWN: Even that, it's like, it's stressful. MATT: And you can just sit by the lake. You can go for a hike. You can- FAWN: Okay. So what I was trying to tell you was that- I, [00:08:00] for this moment, as I'm dealing with- MATT: Right ... FAWN: you know, containing my stress or getting rid of my stress, and just feeling a little tired from work and from everything, I- what appeals to me personally is, like, I used to take courses at a co- at, at a university. MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: Um, creative writing, to write children's books. And just to be in class with this fabulous teacher who was eccentric, yes, but, like, everything was so deep and, you know, you could, you could just read one sentence of literature and have a conversation for hours about it. And then she would do the weirdest things and, and, and have us write all of a sudden. Like, she would pass around a bag. We didn't know what was inside the bag. You would close your eyes. She [00:09:00] would make you close your eyes, reach your hand in, pull something from the bag, and then you had five minutes to read about it, and then the whole class would share what they wrote out loud, what they wrote. Um, for me, of course, I pulled an eraser out, and so you know where that goes, yeah. And then I wrote about the eraser and going back to preschool. So the way I wrote about it, I guess, scared everybody and myself because, you know, I'm like, "Well, it was another lifetime ago," but, like, people looked at me. I thought they were looking at me all crazy, and then I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna drop this class- MATT: Heyo ... FAWN: because now people think I'm some sort of psychopath," right? And I think the teacher noticed, and she's like, "Where are you going?" I'm like, "I think I'm done. I'm, I'm really ashamed of exposing what I [00:10:00] exposed." MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: And much like martial arts, I had a... Something like this happened in martial arts, where you get such an amazing teacher that pulls everybody together and says, "Look, you know, this is okay. This is what we're here for. We're here to share. We're here to contain it. We're here to maneuver with it. You are a human. This is what's going on." Just to share our experiences that are obviously so deep or so, um, touchy or so... What's the word for it, Matt, when it's so raw? Um, obviously it's like a, a personality thing. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not like I, I go around advertising how I beat up this kid over hi- MATT: An eraser, right. FAWN: Uh, yeah, taking my eraser. And what? Like, all these many decades later I'm still talking about the eraser, but really it was because I felt bad for beating up the kid, but, um, for me- Mm-hmm ... that's more of a [00:11:00] bonding thing, and hearing other people's stories that randomly can be sparked by some random trinket from a bag that is obviously still a part of you, that kind of thing, for me personally, that's what I feel creates a bonding situation. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: I d- FAWN: And so that... When you were talking about these camps, I'm like, "Ugh, all that money that needs to be spent, and there's alcohol involved. And like, 'Ooh, let's jump off of a building.' Uh, no thank you." MATT: Right, and I- FAWN: I'm not into it ... MATT: I get it. I get it. I understand. This is a complete kind of, I think, 360. The person who would be attracted to something like this would be someone who, welcome to it, right? They're not looking for a curated teacher-led necessarily experience, and they don't want a hierarchy. They just wanna have some fun. They just wanna have some laughs. And like- eject themselves for a [00:12:00] weekend out of their lives, and maybe it'll spark something new, and maybe it won't. But it's fun. FAWN: I get what you're saying. I don't know why I've become such a curmudgeon. I don't know. Where does curmudgeon come from, by the way? I have a feeling it's a word I shouldn't be using. MATT: I don't know. FAWN: Anyway, I don't know h- why I've become this grumpy person. You're right, it's good to have fun. I guess I'm just in a mood where I just wanna be under the covers and just cry, and I don't get a chance to cry. Babe. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like a storm is brewing. I need to cry, but I don't have time to cry. MATT: Plenty of- FAWN: I have to keep- There's MATT: always time. FAWN: I, nope, mm-mm. I have to keep- ... pushing forward. No, seriously. I have auditions. It's like I have to completely divorce myself from what I'm feeling, and I'm gonna feel what the script is telling me to feel, right? Okay. MATT: Okay. FAWN: And then I come upstairs, I have to deal with the teenagers, and I have to [00:13:00] deal with the neighbor, and then I have to take care of business. It's like when do I have the opportunity to even just cry? And I don't wanna have another eraser moment. MATT: Right. FAWN: You know what I'm saying? I- Where it, you, you just get to a point where you just explode. MATT: I get it. I totally get it. However, what did I do before this podcast? FAWN: You were listening to music and crying MATT: I have my crying song I listen to my crying song. Always makes me tear up, period. If I really listen to it, I'm toast. I'm going to cry. FAWN: That hasn't worked for me. It's not working for me. MATT: But what I'm saying, though, is I- you can find the time. FAWN: Mm-hmm Well, it's not working for me. MATT: All right. Let's continue on. [00:14:00] Okay. So from The Atlantic FAWN: What? MATT: I have my sources. From The Atlantic, I found out that, uh, in, in yet another study, one third of people were, uh, uh, identify themselves as being overwhelmed by text messages. FAWN: Where are these numbers coming from? Just because someone says, "Ooh, an 8% of the population blah, blah, blah." MATT: CNBC said that one FAWN: A third of the- I don't care. I don't trust them anymore either, by the way. I don't trust anybody. I don't know where these... Y- we know this because we, we did several episodes on this kind of stuff. MATT: Right. FAWN: Where, like, these so-called, uh, people did these surveys or did these studies, and we found out that th- these studies are completely bogus, first of all. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. MATT: No, no, no. It's totally fine. No, FAWN: it's okay. So a third of people MATT: are- For, for me, the takeaway is... FAWN: Yeah, people get really upset when you text [00:15:00] them, when you don't text them back right away. MATT: Right. So cut people some slack, okay? And especially you getting, uh, upset at somebody not texting you back quickly, that's only gonna make them feel even more overwhelmed by FAWN: texts. But you know what? That's kind of like doing the dishes or not taking care of something you should be because it'll just pile up. I think it's a good idea to just get it over with and text back immediately. MATT: Yes, FAWN: but- Even if it's, even if it's like, "I'm sorry, I can't respond right now. Overwhelmed." You know what I'm saying? Because you will forget, and it builds up and then the pressure you feel like, "Uh-oh, now I have this to do," and it piles up and now you have 15 things to do. Just get it done. Pay the bill, wash the dishes, clean up the mess on the floor so you don't have to have a whole day of doing laundry where you're doing laundry for eight hours. Because if you clean as you go along, life will be so much easier and better. [00:16:00] So I don't know. I'm kind of with the people- I, I've been all MATT: sides of that equation. FAWN: I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm saying just text back. MATT: Right. We're- FAWN: Even if it's a heart or a frowny face or whatever it is. MATT: And there you go. However, in situations where you don't have any control, like somebody's not texting you back, cut them some slack. FAWN: I do. MATT: That's all. That's it. That's it. Boom. Quick hit. FAWN: I do MATT: Good FAWN: But, yeah. Like w- but you know what? Everything happens and it happens the way it's supposed to. Like, there was some person who emailed me, and I didn't email them back, right? They never texted me. They never said, "Hey, how come you didn't email me back?" I didn't know I was supposed to email them back. I see them in the grocery store, what, two months later. They have never called me, never texted. This is someone who I always took gifts to. [00:17:00] Like, I, I, we did everything for them. When she had s- shoulder surgery, I drove her around. I took care of her kids. I made meals for her, baked her a cake. You know what I'm saying? MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: So excuse me for not emailing you back. She stopped calling because I didn't email her back. I didn't know this at the time. Life was busy for me. I just went along my, my life and then ran into her at the grocery store. She had ... She just let loose on me. Like, "How dare you even smile at me right now when you don't even email me back?" Like, I'm like, oh, my God, this person is crazy. Get out of here. Do you know what I'm saying? Ruined the friendship. I'm like, "Bye." But n- but not after ... First I was like, "Oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry. What email are you talking about?" And then I realized, oh, that email. She just sent me a bunch of links. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: It's not like she poured her out, heart out. She sent me some links that were [00:18:00] troublesome. The ... And I, it was hard to look at, and it took me a while to, like, digest what it was saying, and then boom. She, uh, is ... I was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry," but she was still weird, so I'm like Forget that. She's dead to me. Like, I don't ever wanna see her again. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Right, and this from me saying just cut people some slack. FAWN: She should have cut me some slack- True ... but I'm, I'm glad she didn't because I know her true feelings. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Yes. FAWN: Like, it was one of those things, I guess, when they say rip the Band-Aid off quickly. I'm glad it happened because I know who you are. Thank you so much for, um, being- MATT: Telling me who you are. FAWN: Yeah, exactly. Yes. So- MATT: So don't be that person, FAWN: people ... but, but you know what? Be that person. Let it happen, but just, just don't take it so personally, like either way. Because yeah, it really hurt [00:19:00] me that this person, um, let loose on me like that. MATT: Right. FAWN: Like, started yelling at me at- Mm-hmm ... the grocery store. My God. Wow. Like, I don't know. It just made me lose more faith in humanity and in, in friendship. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Yes. FAWN: It, it, it took me to a place where I'm like, "I don't... I'm tired of people. People suck." That's how, what I started to think, and it took me a while to bounce back. So cut yourself some slack because people be crazy. MATT: Okay. And so for my last, uh, uh, gambit that I'm- What else? ... sure I'm about to get slapped down for- FAWN: I know. I'm like, what else can I shoot down? Go ahead, honey. Ooh. Go ahead. What is it? I'm ready. Feel like we're playing tennis. MATT: Do you realize in 1975- ... 42% of people hosted dinner parties, and here in 2026 we're now down to 12%. FAWN: Think about it, Matt. So a [00:20:00] few years ago, the last place we lived in, we invited people over, and first of all, everyone ha- is allergic to something, or they're vegan or they're not vegan or they're purely meat eaters, right? Or, or they have severe allergy towards tomato, or there's all these things, right? So I made a whole bunch of things for everybody so everyone's okay. They came over, and they were like, "This makes me very uncomfortable. Why did you make so much food?" They, they were dissing me for being a good host. I'm like, "Actually, this is what I do for the whole family. This is how I do, and it's also in my culture. It's in, it's in me to make sure everyone's nourished and y- that you come to our home, our home." This is what I'm o- you know, like- Right ... I'm offering you gifts and nourishment. Like, how dare you tell [00:21:00] me this is not okay? Like, it's making you uncomfortable? It- you know what? You're making me uncomfortable. Get outta here. You guys, I'm in a bad mood today. Can you tell? Um, but, but that's one reason, because people have so many allergies- Right or, or food, uh, dislikes or food sensitive- whatever it is, right? And it's also because people don't know how to behave when they go over to someone's house, and people also don't know how to host properly. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: I do. FAWN: Like, do you remember how many times we've been invited to someone's house and we're a- we're waiting for them to say, "Oh, please sit down"? We ended up standing the entire time until we left. Guys, there's no proper etiquette that's taught to people anymore. People don't know. And now we're in a whole generation where they've never been taught, probably [00:22:00] the second generation, at least, where you don't know how to handle a guest. And you don't know how to be a good guest. People just don't know anymore. So yeah, there's less. And there's also less time, and guess what? It is expensive to put things together. And, but I wanna say there's less time. People are tired to, like, put something on. I'm not. I'm still up for having big dinner parties. I love it. Or tea parties, whatever it is. But, um, yeah. But then people also, like, I get mad when people come over. Like, I'm a neat freak, and, and germs. Germs. Like, I wish people would wash their hands. So you have to remove your shoes when you come to our house. Remove your shoes. That doesn't mean you walk all the way in the house and then take your shoes off. That means take off your shoes at the door. But no, they come in, sit on the furniture, [00:23:00] take their shoes off, and then go put their... I'm like, "What, in what world do you think that that's okay?" No shoes means do not walk with the dirty shoes from the outside inside the home. It makes me so angry. Anyway, so one guest came over, this was a while ago, and I always feel guilty saying, "Please, can you remove your shoes?" 'Cause now I have to stand at the door and make sure they don't come inside all the way with their shoes. So I'm thinking, "Okay, well, I'll compliment them on something while they're taking their shoes off." So I said, "Oh my God, your toe- toe rings are so cute." This person started futzing around with their toes with their fingers, and I'm like, "Okay." And then they c- come inside, I'm like, "Okay, and here's the washroom, like you can wash your hands." And they're like, "Uh-huh." And they went straight to the table and started picking at, like, all the beautiful little cupcakes that I had made. [00:24:00] Makes me crazy. That, that just makes me... Why are you looking... The, am, am I, am I crazy? MATT: No. FAWN: But I, I'm like, you just touched your toes, like in between your toes with your fingers, and you're now touching all the... So anyway, that's why I don't wanna have dinner parties anymore sometimes. Like, that's the thought that comes in. I'm like, "Oh my God, no." The ki- I, I, I, I feel like I'm dealing with, like, wild creatures from the forest that I have to potty-train sometimes when they MATT: Oh, dear. Okay, take off your shoes, put on your diaper FAWN: You know what I mean. Like, seriously. We're about to eat, you know? Like, what is that? Or we invited someone over that I met at an event, and she brought her daughter with [00:25:00] her, and we made this elaborate breakfast for them. They never said thank you. They ate. It was like they treated us like we were a diner. They came in, they, they ate, they left. Never said, "Thank you for having us over. Thank you. That was lovely." No. MATT: Well, I'm sure they brought flowers or something. FAWN: Nope. And I'm not saying you have to buy expensive bouquets of anything. Like, you could, uh, pick something f- you know, from out in the wild. Something. No. MATT: Bring some OJ. FAWN: And then I'm like, "Okay, surely when I see her, maybe she'll say something." Nope. Um, I basically just treated it as free- f- I, I'll never... I, I never wanna talk to this person again. Uh, and every time I see her, I see her doing the same kind of behavior out there in the world- Mm-hmm ... in some way, I'm like, "Uh, uh, uh, I can't." So [00:26:00] guys, what is happening with me? Here I am talking about a friendlier world, how to be friends, how to have proper friendships, and all I'm doing is complaining, and I feel myself becoming more of a, a person that's, like, just is happier being alone. It's not really true, but I'm becoming very selective. Very selective. What's the word that you say? Not, not judgmental, but I'm t- um, more picky. MATT: Discerning. FAWN: Discerning, yeah. I don't know. MATT: And I th- I think, I think we all should be. Yeah. But I've had friends who have taught me how to be a better friend. So- Yeah ... you know, that's also, um, your role and responsibility inside of a friendship. FAWN: I agree. I'm just as- But in these cases that I cited- MATT: Mm-hmm ... FAWN: there was none of that- Right ... because there's some sort of [00:27:00] disconnect, and I haven't figured that one out yet. But I think it goes back to feeling like so much is happening that people are in survival mode, that they don't have the capacity to understand, "Oh, I'm doing this wrong." They're just, like... They're on autopilot in survival mode, and you can't really have good relationships when you're enveloped in that mode, and you, you can't have that kind of person as a good friend for yourself when they're in that mode. When they're in survival mode, guess what? It's all about me, me, me. I need to survive. And I th- I found myself being so disappointed by these people because yeah, they're gonna take whatever they can take. Because they feel like they need to survive, so they'll cheat, lie, and steal in many ways and then you're left kind of sad. So you have [00:28:00] to recognize it. Recognize it as, okay, survival mode. This person, their house is on fire in some way. MATT: Right. FAWN: So not an ideal time to have a relationship with this person. There you go. MATT: Okay. FAWN: Okay. Sorry. Wow. Yay. I'm gonna listen back to this, and I'm probably gonna be so sorry I said all these things, MATT: but- FAWN: Baby ... but it's the truth. This is my truth right now. This is how I'm feeling. MATT: Love you, sweet pea. FAWN: Thanks for saying that. Really, why? ' MATT: Cause you're cute. Hello. FAWN: No, but, like, listen to me. Do I sound terrible? You're cute. I'm- MATT: You're cute ... FAWN: am I a bad person? MATT: No. FAWN: Okay. MATT: Okay. Okay, everyone. FAWN: Yay. Okay. Um, I'm sorry. Talk to you soon. Um, I promise I'll be better next time. [00:29:00] MATT: Be well, everyone. FAWN: But also this is why I didn't wanna record a podcast, 'cause I knew I would turn everything so negative. Please forgive me. I love you. Thank you for listening. Um, we'll be back later. Talk to you later, and have a lovely every day. MATT: Be well. Bye-bye.