Are We Being Misunderstood? The Things We Say Without Saying a Word

FAWN: [00:00:00] Today we talk about communication, yes, that is general. However, when you think you're saying something and something completely different is coming out of your mouth or even your face, today is all about how we come across to people and how we can, uh, maneuver. Welcome back. Here we go Welcome back to Our Friendly World, everybody. MATT: Hey, hey. FAWN: All right. So I, my entire life, have been misunderstood, and I feel like, like I'm trying to be like a certain w- I'm not trying to be a certain way, I'm trying to say something- Mm-hmm ... and something totally the opposite comes across, and I've noticed it in you too, Matt. MATT: Me? Never. FAWN: And I mean, we can laugh about it as time goes away from that situation. We can laugh about it, but we thought [00:01:00] we'd share some examples of faux pas that we have made, that we probably are still making. Like, we probably don't know the ones we're making. You know, you always try to self-correct, but, um, here we go. What do you think, Matt? I mean, you brought this whole subject up today. MATT: I did. I did, and, and honestly, wow, any number of directions we can go, uh, honestly. Um, yeah, where, where I kind of started coming to it was from, ugh, just thinking about communication barriers and how communication is literally the hardest part, I, I think, of any particular job. We were literally at a bagel place yesterday, and they literally couldn't understand that we just wanted a toasted bagel and a bagel with hummus. FAWN: No, they did understand, but they couldn't communicate back there. All they had to do was go in the bin, take out a bagel, from our perspective. We don't know- Right their perspective, right? MATT: Right. FAWN: Take it out, slice it, put it in the [00:02:00] toaster, give it back. 30 minutes later, we're still waiting for just a toasted bagel that was already made. It's right there that we can see. But again, we don't know. We don't know their perspective. MATT: Right, and there you go, and, and, you know- FAWN: But it happens every time at that place, by the way. Every time. Every time. So I told Matt, "You know, we're basically just going there to pay rent," 'cause we just wanted to have a little date, you know, sit in a little corner and talk away from the kids and everything, like away from home, just a different perspective. Um, , we're not really bagel eaters, so we just thought, "Okay, let's just get a bagel and sit there." But- I don't know. MATT: It was infuriating. FAWN: Yeah, you were infuriated. I was used to it 'cause I, I go there once in a while with the kids. Anyway, I digress. MATT: Well, and that's just it. I mean, welcome to the whole between communications. Um, you know, we could talk about, oh my goodness, in 1999, the Martian Climate Orbital, [00:03:00] um, Orbiter rather, uh, was a $327 million costly mistake because two companies could not agree and did not realize that they weren't agreeing on how they were measuring speed. FAWN: I don't understand what you're saying. So what is this thing you're talking about? MATT: So it's, it's a spacecraft. Cost $327 million to send to Mars, and it FAWN: was- Was someone... Oh, so no one was on it. MATT: No. It was- Okay. It was just gonna go in and- A FAWN: spaceship. MATT: Yeah. It was gonna... Satellite. It was gonna go in and take a look at the atmosphere, and probably still be running today, frankly, because that's how they seem to build these things. Um, but when it went in, that's when the handoff occurred between two different companies, the software that they wrote. And they didn't know, Company A didn't know that Company B was gonna give them numbers in this particular, like, let's say miles per hour, right? Although it wasn't. The company was expecting to see them in, let's say, kilometers per hour, and guess what? Everything got screwed up and the, and the thing just exploded. [00:04:00] You know, that's an extreme example FAWN: of- What... Okay, hold on. What got screwed up? Like one was- The MATT: speed. FAWN: What, so one was giving them kilometers- The- ... one was giving them miles? MATT: The initial speed going in, and then the other one was gonna adjust for that speed. FAWN: Mm-hmm. MATT: And the speeds were completely bonkers off. Oh. So they couldn't adjust it, and it ended up just exploding. And they don't know ex- they, I don't, I don't think they even know exactly why it exploded or why they lost communication with it, but they did at the end of the day, and it's- Because FAWN: both- MATT: It's very expensive to go figure that out. FAWN: And all that happened because, um, the two teams weren't communicating the right numbers. Like the- MATT: Didn't, didn't agree FAWN: on the MATT: numbers. FAWN: They weren't communi- Got it. MATT: Yeah, it's kind of- FAWN: Yeah, you know what? It's funny you should bring this up because, uh, one of the kids, we were in the kitchen early morning a few days ago, and they were like, "So why is this here?" Something about the government what's the difference and w- what's the point? I don't know. We were talking about civics, right? [00:05:00] And I said, "Yeah, but that doesn't mean they com- they communicate." She couldn't understand w- um, why they're so different, they have different jobs. Something like that. I don't... Actually, I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I, I had to explain that's when problems occur because just because you have federal and state and city, it doesn't mean they communicate with one another, and that was the problem with 9/11, was there was no communication between agencies. Right. Right? So one knew there was a problem, but they didn't, they didn't, they didn't explain it to the other groups or agencies. Am I right? Is that what happened? MATT: That is, I think- FAWN: So- ... a MATT: lot of what did happen, yeah. FAWN: So there's like, you think or you take for granted that someone understands something, but they don't, and when you take the things for granted, when you assume this person should know or this, or this entity should know, that's when you run into problems.[00:06:00] And I mean, we've had this fight too, right? In, in different ways where I'm like, "Don't assume that someone understands what time zone you're talking about when you're scheduling a meeting." And you're like, "Well, they know I'm on the, ooh, this whatever coast. It doesn't matter. They should know better." I'm like, "Yeah, but now you've wasted four hours of time, and you're now infuriated because you assume." So the time, the 10 seconds it takes to just say, "By the way, I'm on Hawaii time," knowing that they're on LA time or whatever time they're on, right? MATT: Right. FAWN: Just 10 seconds. But n- but because you were so, intent on they should know their business and they should communicate better, you didn't say it, and guess what? We ran into problems. MATT: By the way, I did say my time. FAWN: I understand, but she needed to know exactly because people don't read. MATT: Right. FAWN: People don't read, so you have to make it [00:07:00] clear. You have to find a way for it to stand out, and it seems like a big pain to do that, but I think there's a bigger pain when you don't. I'm sorry. I digress. MATT: I think I respect the heck out of people who do pay attention, who I'm giving money FAWN: to. Absolutely. MATT: But that's beside the point. This... We're supposed to be having fun with this stuff. FAWN: Oh, no. MATT: And now it feels so serious. FAWN: I'm sorry I do that. MATT: Okay, no. No, no, no, I, I did it. $327 million. I mean, for goodness sake, that's pretty darn serious. FAWN: Yeah, we wanted to take this somewhere light. MATT: Honest. FAWN: Sorry. Let's go. Let's go light. Okay. So for example, miscommunications Do you want to start or should I start? I mean, I, I do them all the time, and I don't realize it until years later, like what I said or how I came across, all because I'm like, "Why did that person look at me like that?" Or, "Why did they, um, treat me like that from that point on?" You know, I seriously couldn't figure it out, and I had to like think [00:08:00] about it, think about it, think about it. And as I heard other people, get into similar situations, I'm like, "Oh, that's what they meant." For example, we were at a farmers market. This was years ago. We were in a farmers market, and this one farm stand, actually a lot of them, they were big into zucchinis, and the prices were so wonderful. Like, it was not expensive at all, super cheap and organic and, like, they, they were awesome zucchinis. Um, so a lot of the farmers were growing these zucchinis, and I would get bags and bags of them Be-- Well, first of all, we're vegan, so like just getting a whole cart of vegetables is like, that's all- Is like a shopping trip. Yeah. It's like that's our entire thing is like we can get a whole bunch of vegetables and it looks like we're feeding a restaurant, but I'm making things with them. You know what I'm saying? Like they, they get used. So, um, [00:09:00] the farmer asked me what I'm gonna do with the zucchinis, and I just very, very like, uh, probably a blank look on my face, like very matter of factly said, "We're gonna eat them." And she just looked at me with this weird look, and then I'm like, "Okay, " i gave them the money and I walked away... And I always thought, "Why did she look at me like that?" MATT: Right. Good question. FAWN: Now, to be fair, from my perspective, because this farmer's market in particular sold so many zucchinis, they would have a zucchini race. They would turn these r- zucchinis into cars, and they would have the kids and adults, um... Like they would put wheels on them. They, they would find a way to make it kinetic. Is it called kinetic? MATT: Right. FAWN: So, and then they would have these races down a hill, whose zucchini would be faster, like a car race, right? So when she asked me, "What are you gonna do with the zucchinis?" That's where [00:10:00] my mind went, 'cause I'm like, "I'm not gonna be wasteful. I'm gonna eat them. We're gonna eat them." Right. "And I'm gonna feed it to people." So of course my response was, "Eat them." But I'm also a very odd person when it comes to communication because as I have been learning throughout my life, I understand things, especially directions by the way, completely different, differently than other people. We have so many cookbooks because I'm, I love cooking. I was a pastry chef. I, I love cooking. That's like my love language. Um, we have so many cookbooks, but I don't follow any recipe from any one of them. I just like having them around. I, I find them like romance novels. I love them. But, um, I can't follow direction because I don't understand the directions. What does this mean? My brain operates differently. So when I have to talk to some people, things just come [00:11:00] across wrong and I don't even realize it. You know? MATT: Yes. FAWN: Anyway MATT: Yeah, absolutely. Um, my goodness. I mean, one of our longstanding, I suppose, famous examples would be, you know, when I, uh, I was trying to get floors installed in, uh, in, in our house and the woman couldn't do it because they were too busy. And I said, "Good for you." FAWN: But here's the-- But here's where we-- This is where it comes from. So we're living in a small town, and we were always saying to each other, "Let's support small businesses." And especially because we were starting our businesses, we understood how important it is to, uh, go out there and, and find, um, relationships with people, you know, authentically provide a good service to people, and how important it is to get a client, right? And when you do, it's a big [00:12:00] deal. So we, we were-- That's where we were coming at it from. Right. That's where you were coming- I was genuinely MATT: happy for them, but I don't think that came across at all. FAWN: And because Matt is such a math guy and he works be-behind a screen doing code You have to switch code to talk to people in person. So he c- he came across a little bit robotic, I think, right? MATT: Right. FAWN: But, but, but I know- Well, I was MATT: already thinking about who I needed to talk to next. FAWN: But also, I know that you were genuinely happy to hear that a business was doing well, right? Right. Especially a, a woman-owned business. So you genuinely meant, "Good for you. I'm so happy for you." MATT: But I didn't say, "I'm so happy for FAWN: you." You just said, "Good for you." And that was the end of the call. MATT: Right. FAWN: And somehow I think she called back and I picked up the phone, and she's like: "I don't appreciate that." I'm like: "What happened?" So she explained what happened. I'm like, "So the..." I had to explain it to her that [00:13:00] from you, you saying good for you, this is what he actually meant. This is what Matt meant. He was gen- And she was like: "Oh, I'm so glad I called back because I, I was really upset." MATT: And, and that would be, you know, you could call that robotic, which is very kind of you, so we need to, we need to be aware of this as far as the people we meet out in the world. We don't know what the other people are going through. We don't know that the guy who just cut us off is speeding because their y- their wife is pregnant or, you know, they have to get somewhere right now for a very, very good reason. They have to perform heart surgery. Who knows? It's, it's we don't know what, uh, the, you know, what... We just feel the communication like, "Oh, that, that so-and-so cut me off," not, not, "Oh my God, he needs to get where he's going and he needs to get there now." Godspeed. FAWN: I worked at a design studio, and we would get reps coming into the studio all the time that would try to sell us [00:14:00] samples, like try to sell us on carrying their brand of hardwood floors or w-whatever, tiles, right? So they bring in samples and you have to negotiate with them, you have to talk to them. Um, and usually they're, they're sa-salespeople, so they're like super kind and friendly and upbeat, you know? But there was this one person who would come in that was so mean and rough and short, like short as in abrupt with his speech. And, um, every time we knew that this guy was coming in, we were like, "Uh-oh, brace yourselves. Here he comes." Until one day, the lead designer was like, "You know, I have a feeling he's in pain. There's no reason for him to be like that other than he must be experiencing some sort of pain. Let's, let's dive into it the next time." So he comes in, and she starts talking to him. Now, she was older than we were and about his age and everything, [00:15:00] so it was a conversation that she felt like she could handle because, one, she wasn't taking anything personally 'cause she was already in that frame of mind of what's going on with him rather than, "Why is he treating us like that?" You know what I'm saying? Right. And, um, turns out he had a problem with his body where he was in physical pain 24 hours a day, right? So you don't have the capacity to be smiley and, like, you don't have the, the energy to be what the other person wants you to be. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I think we're always code switching. We're always judging, and we're always trying to calculate and be on the same level as someone we're talking to so you can communicate better. Like, you know, we mimic one another, right? Right. If someone smiles, you smile back. If someone says hello, you say hello. You know what I'm saying? MATT: Yes. FAWN: [00:16:00] Um, so that wasn't happening because his focus is his focus because of pain, and it comes across this way. He's just trying to survive, right? So that changed everything. Like, that's another thing with, like, that and your saying good for you and me with all my faux pas. Like, as I grow older, I'm like, "Okay, now I have experience with this." As it's happening, I'm like, "Okay, let me think about this, and let me maneuver myself in a way where I'm better understood or in a way that I better understand someone else." Right. Like the zucchini farmer, right? She probably wanted a recipe MATT: Maybe, FAWN: yeah And so, and people ask me all the time 'cause I'll go to the store and there will be a shopping cart full of one thing. "What are you gonna do with that?" I'm like, "What do you think I'm gonna do? Like build a bomb?" Like I'm buil- You know, so now I know better, so I'm like, "Actually, I'm testing a peach recipe for [00:17:00] pie," you know? Or I'm, I'm, you know what I'm saying? Right. Or whatever it is, so. MATT: Right. You're, all of a sudden it changes the conversation. I remember you mentioning, um, at a grocery store there was a guy, older, older gentleman who had packed up his whole cart with vegetables exactly the same way you describe our cart, and everybody came up to him and said, "Oh my God. Look at this. W- why are you getting so many vegetables?" And he did exactly what you did. FAWN: Right. MATT: He's like, "Uh, I'm just shopping here, FAWN: folks." But we did the same thing just last week. We saw this guy, like he had so much meat in his cart. We're like, "What are you gonna do with that?" We asked him. You asked him if he was having a party. I asked him 'cause I was like, "Oh, you having MATT: a barbecue?" And he was like, "No, I'm, I'm cooking up steaks for my dogs, and it's, it's at a really good price. Thanks for asking." FAWN: But like [00:18:00] we knew better than to just straight up ask 'cause it, we, you- MATT: I just straight up asked. FAWN: No, no, no, no, but I was watching you 'cause I'm like, "Uh-oh, here we go. Here we go." But I was watching you, and you actually had, you, your, your demeanor changed at, before you approached him with that question. You know what I'm saying? Like- Well, MATT: I was curious, not inquisitive. But, FAWN: yeah, you weren't like, "What are you gonna do with all that meat?" You weren't like that. You were you started it by kinda chuckling and going, "Oh, wow. Are you gonna have a party? Like a barbecue?" Like it came from a softer place rather than- MATT: Right. It came from a very soft place ... FAWN: like, "What are you building with that? What are you doing taking everyone else's meat?" You know, or whatever. I don't know. 'Cause sometimes I think about that when I go to the grocery store and I buy a lot of one thing. Mm-hmm. I'm like, "Uh-oh, am I greedy? Like am I taking away from someone else who needs this apple?" MATT: Nobody needs the [00:19:00] chips, honey, so grab all of them. FAWN: I don't want to MATT: do FAWN: that. But like, we have a lot of them. Like another time, like I didn't... Like my entire life I realized, um, that my face says something completely different than what I'm actually thinking. And I- growing up when I was a kid, they were like, "Why are you looking like that?" And I never understood that, so I just ignored it. I'm like, "Whatever, I don't know." So, and then as I got older, someone was like, "Wow, do you hate that person?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" They're like, "You're looking at that person with such intense," like I don't know. "Are you mad at them? Do you hate them?" I'm like, "Who are you ta-" And, uh, they're like, "You know, you're looking at," let's just say Sally over here, right? I'm like, "Oh my God, no." I was seriously trying to figure out [00:20:00] like her beauty, like she's so beautiful that I w- I was understanding her beauty. So I was inside my body I'm thinking wonderful thoughts about this person, but apparently my face looked intense and scary 'cause whatever. I have dark features and, you know, my eyebrows tend to go together when I'm concentrating, and it looks like I'm mad. Mm-hmm. But I'm not. And then other times when I'm mad and people don't understand that I'm mad. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. And so I explode 'cause I'm like, "Don't you understand?" But like we went to the movies, Matt and I, when we were dating, when we were first dating, and we saw... I don't even remember what the movie was, but I remember I was loving it. I was so happy. I was so entrenched. I was so in it, and I was so like in a good space. Meanwhile- Like it was a happy space. It was a happy romantic comedy. I was so like [00:21:00] in just, how else can I say it? In a good space. MATT: Meanwhile, I'm like, "Oh my God, she's hating this. We should... Should I ask her if we should go?" FAWN: Yeah. So you turn to me, you're like, "Are you okay?" Like, "Do you hate this this much?" I'm like, "Why?" And you explained that I looked really in- like bored, like my face was almost expressionless. But what was happening was I was just like in awe. You know? I'm like, "Oh my God, totally the opposite." So again, another example of like, oh man, you know, I come across completely different than how I'm actually feeling. So I wonder if that happens to other people. Is it just us? It hap- MATT: it- I FAWN: mean, we are oddballs. MATT: Yes, but I think it happens to... I think everyone gets misinterpreted or, or says the wrong thing at the, at the, at the right time, if you will, just as, as a matter of course. And it, it, it takes sometimes some discipline. Like [00:22:00] now when I... We have three floors in the building, my current job, and so sometimes I'll just kind of wander because I just need to get some steps in, I need to get away from my keyboard, whatever it is. But I always try and walk around with kind of a bemused half smile on my face so that nobody thinks I'm upset. I'm not, I'm choosing to not walk particularly slow, but not particularly fast, and to try and maintain a very, very open pose because people will look up. Most people will just blissfully ignore you, but some people will look up, and I don't want anybody thinking I'm, you know, I'm feeling anything other than I'm just getting some steps in, frankly. FAWN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. MATT: And if they look at me, I'll smile. FAWN: Right. I don't know. Like e- I, I don't know. And then there are just like... Sorry about that. My phone. I have to h- have my phone on right now. I'm waiting for a message. Okay. [00:23:00] Um, what else? What else? I had so many examples, and now I'm kind of blank. But did we come across, like, okay? Like, do you think... I don't, I don't know. Are you guys under- are you understanding what we're saying? Let us know. Well, I- Does this make sense? MATT: I'd like to FAWN: c- Are we the only ones? MATT: No. FAWN: And- I bet you we are, though. I bet you most people are like... I don't know. MATT: No. Here's a famous one. So back in the day, yada, yada, there was a show called "Happy Days." Everybody loved it. Then there was a spinoff called "Joanie Loves Chachi," and when that debuted in some country that I am not aware of, it had the highest ratings of any show ever, "Joanie Loves Chachi," because Chachi translated to a man's anatomical sexual organ. FAWN: No. MATT: Yes. So it happens to, it, it happens, and it happens at [00:24:00] high levels. Communication. Wow. You need to understand the context and, and everything else, so I'm sure there was a lot of disappointed people. FAWN: Oh, wow. MATT: Yes. FAWN: But yeah, that reminds me of the car Nova. MATT: Yes. FAWN: Like Nova was created in America, I think, wasn't it? Right. And they were like, "How come it's not selling in South America?" Um, it means no go. And it also means, uh- It means it does not work. MATT: Yes. FAWN: It means it does not MATT: work. It means, it means won't go, yes. FAWN: Nova. Wow. MATT: Yeah. FAWN: But I understand the American point of view, like Nova, like supernova. It's a, it's MATT: a- FAWN: It's a star. MATT: Yeah, something like, yes. It's a, it's an astronomical thing. FAWN: Oh my goodness. We just need to stop taking everything so seriously and understand that, that... Well, yeah. You know what? And MATT: maybe take a minute for context. That the key- Either, either giving it to someone else or taking a beat and trying to understand it if we're not being provided context. FAWN: I just think we should stop [00:25:00] taking things seriously. Uh, no, personally. That's what I was trying to say. Don't make it personal unless it's directed exactly at you. Like when people don't understand I'm mad at you. When you don't understand I'm mad at you Over and over and over again, and then I explode, and you're like, "Whoa, where'd that come from?" I'm like- Yep, I sure do ... are you kidding me right now? So to you it looks like I went from zero to a million in a split second, and then I feel crazy. I'm like, "I went to zero for, to a million in one second." But really I did not, 'cause I have to sit back and go, "Wait a minute. This happened, and then this happened, and then this got ignored, and this got, this, that." No. MATT: You realize I go through a very, very similar process. FAWN: I know. MATT: Okay. FAWN: I know. Good. MATT: Yay. FAWN: I know you do. MATT: And I'm trying now to say, "Okay, I'm starting to, I'm starting to feel upset." And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh my God, we're at DEF CON 5." FAWN: Yes, that's [00:26:00] true. MATT: And, and we're not. We're at DEF CON 2. FAWN: What is-- first of all, where does DEFCON come from? Is that a MATT: military thing? Nu- it's a nuclear thing. FAWN: Oh, right, right, right, right. DEFCON MATT: 5 is we're about to launch our missiles. FAWN: Right. MATT: DEFCON, like, 1 is peace. FAWN: Right. MATT: And then it steps into it. FAWN: Okay. All right. Peace. MATT: Peace. Lots of peace, hopefully. FAWN: My goodness. All right. MATT: Context. Provide it, try and get it, give it a beat. FAWN: But see, that's why I've been wanting to be alone the past few years. It's a lot of energy to keep up with, because it's not just what someone says, it's how someone looks. And if it's not how someone looks, it's, it's a feeling, it's a vibe, it's the energetic-ness of it. And again, you don't know where it's coming from, but how can you not take it seriously because you're feeling what you're feeling, right? And when you are not at full capa- when you're at full [00:27:00] capacity, when you have so much that you're dealing with, a little pin drop is like DEFCON, what did you call it? MATT: Five. FAWN: Five. So... And MATT: this, this explains why it can be really hard to make friends. FAWN: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And I mean, when we started this years ago, this whole friendship movement, people were like, "I don't need to make friends. I don't wanna make friends." I'm like, "Oh, I feel so sorry for them." This is what I was feeling inside. Mm-hmm. But now I'm one of those people, I think. I'm like, "I just don't want to." MATT: Ah. Blasphemy. I FAWN: mean, I do. I want that community I've always been craving, but there's so much going on and especially being a mom, and a mom who's, like, finally trying to restart. I'm starting, restarting my career, and I'm being worried about so many things. So many things, you guys. Like, seriously, I'm worried about so many things that [00:28:00] I am beyond exhausted. I c- I don't know. So all this takes energy, right? MATT: Yes. FAWN: To check yourself constantly, especially when you feel judged already. Now I have to judge myself even more and go, "Okay, um, what does my face really look like here?" Where I'm like, "I just wanna lay down under my covers and not have anyone look at me, or not have to deal with anyone feeling a certain way because of my presence or because of what I'm, like, contributing to the world or not." I don't know. Whatever it is people expect or demand of me or need from me, I just wanna be left alone right now. It's a, it's a lot. But I don't know. We, we can't just be under the covers all the time. I can't. I can't. I know I shouldn't be hiding. I know. I mean, look at me. I'm like, you know, my, my major purpose is to bring friendship back, [00:29:00] right? MATT: Right. FAWN: It's a struggle for me. That's it. I, I can keep talking. I don't wanna get negative. I'm going down the re- negative road, Matt. Help me out. MATT: I tried- FAWN: Let's MATT: just- ... twice. FAWN: All right, let's close it off right here. Yay. MATT: Okay, context. Try and get some, try and give some, okay? Yeah. And be patient with people. FAWN: Be patient with me. Leave me alone. MATT: All right. I'm just FAWN: kidding. MATT: You know, you're, you've listened to the whole podcast, so good for you. FAWN: Shoot. Thank you for listening is what Matt is saying. MATT: We love you all. FAWN: Thank you. MATT: And please, please, please, don't make us feel like we're the only ones. Share, share your own guffaw, please. FAWN: All right. Maybe we are the only ones. Oh, well, Matt. Oh, well. All right. Uh, have a beautiful every day, you guys. MATT: Be well, everyone.