Episode Transcript
FAWN: [00:00:00] For the lack of a better word, I'm gonna use the word busy again, the four-letter nasty word, busy. In our busy world, there's so many obstacles it feels like for us
There's so many things in the way of friendship In making new friends, in making friends, period. But as we move and as we get busy, like Matt and I have moved a lot But as we move through life even, there are some friends who are with us since childhood, since a long time. But what happens when we're far apart from each other and we have a chance to get back together again?
there's this inertia, to get over to meeting new friends, to meeting people, it feels like to us what's been happening is the same inertia is there To being with an old friend that we haven't been with in a while. Things are gonna be so different." And it's scary for us. It's scary for us to reconnect today's episode [00:01:00] is Matt's experience with a longtime buddy of his thanks for tuning in. Here we go.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to our fr- Let's start again.
Welcome back, everybody.
MATT: Hello.
FAWN: Hi. All right. So this is what we've been going through lately. And when I say we, it's been Matt, but whatever Matt goes through, I go through. So Matt, you wanna take it away? Like, tell us how you're feeling.
MATT: Absolutely.
FAWN: Tell me how you're feeling.
MATT: Well, I'm all over the place 'cause I'm...
Thought experiments and et cetera. There's a lot going on, I think, emotionally in my own head right now. But this is an interesting one, and this is a challenging one, frankly. So, you know, I think much like most people, I have, you know, I have a group of acquaintances, and then I have a much, much smaller group of friends.
And as it turns out, my group of [00:02:00] friends, my oldest friend at this point in time Not 100% fair, but we'll say that's fair. Um, lives many thousands, let's, let's just say 1,000 miles away. So we- we never get together physically. But we talk like every week, and, and now that the sporting season has started, we're gonna talk more often.
FAWN: So Matt and his best friend, we've talked about him before, Steeny. We, we have a nickname, Steeny. Um, it's been a while since you've been in the same room-
MATT: Right
It, it, and it's, it absolutely right, it has been a while. Anyways, he's going to be, he is right this very second, uh, two hours away, and he is two hours away at a wedding actually, and he came with his family, and they're spending the weekend in, the city.
And yeah, and he's like: "Hey, I might be able to split out some time, [00:03:00] and I might be able to come see you." And I convinced him that he should spend time with his family.
FAWN: Can I just interject something? Yes. So the way we live, I think, in this country, in the United States, is different than, let's say, Europe,
because, like even living in Los Angeles, if someone was 20 minutes away, it was a huge deal to go to their house. Now Matt is looking at me with his eyebrows like all cr- scrunched together because he had no problem driving.
I did. Right. And most people I knew in, in my village, my neighborhood- Right ... we had a problem with it because there were so many obstacles to overcome because in our neighborhood, traffic was terrible. Parking your car, finding a place to park your car when you did come back home was ridiculously hard.
And, um, there's a lot to overcome to just go visit [00:04:00] someone that's 20 minutes away. Now, you grew up in a kind of a different neighborhood where it was easier to get to- Much ... someone. But like, you know, it, it's hard and, and there's a physical aspect to it. There's also a psychological aspect to it.
Like you have to get over this hump. You have to get over this mountain- ... to go visit your friend, and most times you are tired from work or your mind is, you know, my mind is tired that by the time I'm in traffic, like 20 minutes away could actually turn into two hours.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: For one d- in one direction. So four hours of travel altogether- Mm-hmm
for a 20-minute distance. So it's a lot. And not, I'm not even factoring the time that you would spend together. So that's a big chunk of your day that's occupied and, you know, when are you going to rest? When are you going to eat? When [00:05:00] are you gonna do your gro- your grocery shopping? Like, the list of things that I have to do.
So I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I'm like, you know what? I just wanna stay home. And, you know- ... I wonder if this is why, this is why, especially in this country, that the whole friendship thing has kind of gone out the window when we've become so alone. However, what, the reason why I wanted to s- uh, interrupt you was it's different in Europe because you can jump on a train.
So yes, Stini is like two hours away right now.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Right? It's so hard to get a train or a bus or a car to actually make that drive. Even though we're pretty close right now, it's still a good part of your day. And, you know, he's with family and he has probably a million things planned, and we're not [00:06:00] factoring how much time and effort it actually takes to get to where we are or for us to get to where he is.
MATT: Or am I just making excuses?
FAWN: I mean, these are excuses.
MATT: And they're,
FAWN: they sound really good too. They are. You know, I'm gonna be honest with, with each other here. They're excuses. At the same time, it's a lot of effort. Right. And I, I mean, I for one, you know, and I'm not talking about Steini, I'm, I'm talking about if I have to go for a job that's a couple hours away.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: I, as much as I need the money, I'm thinking, "Is it worth it?" By the time I pay for transportation and all this, once I get paid, I'm actually, I've lost money to do this job. And your whole thing is it's okay because it's about exposure, it's about meeting people, it's about getting-
MATT: Experience
FAWN: getting your experience and getting your name out there, and this job could lead into other jobs, you know? There's so much to weigh. Right. And it, it's [00:07:00] not that simple, uh, just saying, "Okay, let me just go and, like, meet this friend." Anyway, sorry to digress. Back to you, Matt. I'm just saying I think it's easier in Europe, you know, 'cause transportation is so much better.
MATT: Point, point.
FAWN: Easier,
MATT: easier. But at the end of the day, we probably could have negotiated something. But, you know, in my head, in the back of my head, I'm like, "But he should be spending time with family, and he took this trip these number of miles, and, you know, he should spend that time with the family, building memories with the family, da-da-da-da-da-da.
Right? God, that sounds lovely, doesn't it? And we
FAWN: were saying, the kids and I were telling you, you should invite the whole family. They could sleep over. It would be so much fun. And then I think you said there's not enough time. They don't have enough time. Right.
MATT: Right. There's not enough time. You know, weddings can be a big deal.
There's the, um- Oh, to point out- ... bridal stuff ... T- Steenie
FAWN: is here
MATT: for
FAWN: a wedding. There's the- A friend's wedding.
MATT: I did say that. You did say that? I did. I'm sorry. Uh, I guess you'll find out on the tape. [00:08:00] But anyways, um, you know, there's the hen night, there's the stag do, there's the, you know, uh, connecting with all the family that they haven't seen in forever.
FAWN: So for those of you listening in other countries, what Matt just described, it's like all the parties that happen before the wedding.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: All the events.
MATT: So all well and good, right? I have all the right excuses, but then I was like, "Ah-" But, and that's the, that's the thing. It's, it's the but. Okay, let's pretend we swept all of those off the table.
Would I still want to? Would I still, you know, would I be encouraged? You know, first of all, he wouldn't even be here, but let's say he was here for, for business, and let's say he was gonna have a weekend free. You know, where are my excuses there?
FAWN: So it sounds like you have two hurdles from what I understand.
One is the physical hurdle, and then here comes the psychological one.
MATT: Right. And now, and now we hit the next one, and, and it's an interesting one. And by the way, this one is, mm, [00:09:00] very challenging to Google because, um, 'cause I love asking computers answers for questions. But, uh, it's all about meeting someone for the first time.
This is not the case. I have known this guy for 26 years. I knew this guy when I was single.
FAWN: No. Hello, it's been way more than 26 years.
MATT: Let's say 27 years. So it's been 27 years, and it's been 10 years, and I'll get to that, since the last time I was physically in the same room as him. You know, we worked together. And then when all that fizzled out, then we managed, and it was more on his side, we managed to cobble together a friendship that has grown and, , is in a really good place.
FAWN: It's interesting because even though there's been the space, the distance of, like, physical miles- Mm-hmm ... he has been to our family, I'll say it this way, I mean, not just a, a great friend to you, but a great friend to our family because at a time where you almost died and you were at the hospital, and during that time, all of our [00:10:00] friends, all of my friends disappeared.
I never wa- I mean, I was so heartbroken because you were in the state you were, and I was petrified. And then, you know, getting over that, trying to, like, heal from that, both physically and emotionally for the both of us, then came the realization that these jerks who I assumed were our family friends, our best friends, just poof, disappeared because they couldn't be bothered to handle something difficult in life.
Like, we actually needed them. All the times we were there for other people-
MATT: Right ...
FAWN: giving them so much, and the one time I just needed, like, just someone to be with us, they all, these people just disappeared. Steeny, this friend we're talking about, was the only person who [00:11:00] didn't have to be asked, "Hey, can you come be with us?"
He got on a plane. He just, he came He took care of us. I'm sorry, it just still makes me cry. What a wonderful friend.
MATT: Which of course makes me feel even worse on some level that, you know, I would have these thoughts in my head like, you know, "What are you?" Um-
FAWN: And that was the last time we were in the same room with him.
MATT: Exactly. And, you know, I really think about it and, you know, that certainly... And now the list of psychological excuses come, and one of the psychological excuses, and a good one I think maybe is, um, you know, do I really-- Am I going to revisit that moment in time the way my wife unfortunately just did? Um, because I'm a guy and I have walls and da, da, da, da, da, da.
I'm sailing down the river of denial or maybe I've [00:12:00] processed it. I don't know. Um, but be that as it may, it, it certainly affects my wife a lot worse than it affects me. Um, but still, will that bring it all back is to me a very relevant thing and, and, and one of those kind of things that would make me hesitant But peeling away, it feels like peeling away the onion, it was like, I don't know if that feels right.
I mean, certainly him being with his family, that's, that's key to me, and that was the most important thing, I think, is, you know, maintaining those close relationships. Because our relationship is close and it's maintained. We're good. You know? We're, we're in a good place. Uh, you know, we know how we feel about each other.
We connect on interesting levels and, you know, one of the nicenesses, honestly, behind, uh, you know, our relationship, 'cause it's basically, it's solely on the phone, believe it or not. We're, I don't know if people would call that old [00:13:00] school. I would call old school, like, sending physical letters, but that's beside the point.
Um- I
FAWN: mean, you talk to each other pretty much every day.
MATT: We w-
FAWN: On the phone.
MATT: We talk to each other once, twice, maybe sometimes three times a week. But, and sometimes- Mm ... we go two weeks without speaking.
FAWN: I feel like it's the same time of day that the phone rings and the whole family yells, "It's DD."
MATT: Right.
Right. And that is true. Um, but we carve out this time, and it's convenient time, I think, for both of us, and if one of us can't make it, it's not a big deal, yada, yada, yada. So it all kind of works, and so, you know, thinking about, you know, would that drag me? No. It's not about, I don't, I don't think it's about when the last time I physically saw him, you know?
Uh, and then I was like, "Well, okay. Okay, if that's not it, what, what else might it be?" And, and, you know, another thing I passed through-
FAWN: So let me just stop you for a second. So [00:14:00] emotionally, what you're feeling, what you're trying to figure out is what's the hesitancy that you have-
MATT: Right ...
FAWN: about being in the same room with him after all of these years.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Even though you're very close, you speak almost on a daily basis.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Um, and you know, the, the friendship has definitely been tested over the decades. Because I mean, yeah, we're politically, like, different. We're... Like, in so many ways you guys have opposing views, but there's at the same time so much respect that you have for each other.
It's quite inspiring to witness as your wife. It's, um, it's a beautiful friendship.
MATT: Yeah. The way that we, the
FAWN: w- Because there's respect ...
MATT: the way that the world would divide us, the way that the United States would divide itself right now-
FAWN: The whole world now ...
MATT: we, we kind of stand in the middle, which is nice.
FAWN: [00:15:00] Yeah. Despite the, the differences and the divide, you're very much close friends. '
MATT: Cause I always like to say there is a sequence of five, 10 words that would cause me to get fired from any job And, you know, I believe that there's s- similar sequences that would cause me, and some longer, some shorter, that would cause certain of my relationships, other relationships to end.
FAWN: Okay. We've talked about this, so you have to re-explain it just because, you know, if someone doesn't understand what you're talking about. I gotcha. What... Can you explain again what the five sequence of words are? Th- this is something you created, right?
MATT: So if, if I-
FAWN: This thought ...
MATT: if I called up my boss right now and I said, "I hate you.
Go to H-E- double hockey sticks. F this. You stink. Da, da, da, da, da," I'd expect my walking papers.
FAWN: There are certain words, a sequence of certain words that you would say that would be what we call a deal breaker. Right. Which means it's the end of the [00:16:00] relationship, end of the job, end of a friendship, end of a relationship.
And,
MATT: and it, it can be even worse with people that you know more intimately because you know what you could say to get under their skin and destroy the friendship if that's what you wanted to do. Like, you know, if you had a... Never mind. I don't even wanna go into examples. But I think hopefully you guys can understand that, and hopefully you guys do understand that, and you know that there are certain things that you could say.
Anyways, so passing through that, passing through another thought, it was, you know, maybe just hanging out with him again. Maybe I'm gonna, um, kind of start thinking that this, that the relationship we have now over the phone isn't enough. Maybe I'll miss hanging out with him. And I think that that's a fair and accurate statement, but I don't think that that's, that's really the hesitation.
I don't think that's where the hesitation really comes
FAWN: from. Wait. So does that mean, if I can equate it to food, which I often d- relate to [00:17:00] everything with food, does that mean you don't wanna have a little taste of the chocolate cake because you feel like you w- would want the whole chocolate cake, and then you would feel sad 'cause you wouldn't be allowed to have the whole cake?
So you don't wanna be with Steenie in the same room because then you would realize how lonely you are without him being close by?
MATT: See, I would argue I don't wanna eat the entire chocolate cake because I know I'll never expe- I, I, I will rarely if ever experience that chocolate cake again
FAWN: We can't live like that, honey.
You can't... You-- Taste the chocolate cake
MATT: See, food is not necessarily the best example
FAWN: Sorry, it's the only example I can come
MATT: up with But, but there are, you know, there are vegan restaurants that we've eaten at, and, and from my college days, there's a tomato soup that I still want. There's a, there's a cream cheese frosting I still want.
Oh, [00:18:00] I can still taste them both. And no. And so there's this- It's
FAWN: never the same ...
MATT: there's, there's on some level a longing for that
FAWN: But that's the beauty of relationships. That's the beauty of life is it's never the same. I mean, as a photographer, I can stand in the same spot and have you stand exactly where I stood, even get yourself short to my eye level, use the same lens, use the same camera, and we still have a different picture at, in the end.
Life is never the same. Every moment has changed. Collectively, we're all experiencing life together, so there's no way you can live something over exactly the same way again. So just, Matt, get it through your beautiful head right now. Life will never be exactly the same as it was with something you remember, so you can't, you shouldn't, you can't, you can do whatever you want.
MATT: Yeah,
FAWN: yeah. But you, you shouldn't, I don't think... Just [00:19:00] don't, don't think like that. Just experience it and have a piece of chocolate cake and not think, "Oh, this is not the chocolate cake I had in Santa Cruz 85,000 years ago." You know what I'm saying? Enjoy- Don't get me
MATT: started on the burritos ...
FAWN: enjoy, enjoy it.
My gosh. Because what's the, what's the alternative is you don't Period. Hello.
MATT: Okay Thank you. Takes me to my next one, though.
FAWN: Uh-oh.
MATT: Well, I mean, we're not physically speaking, since it's been 10 years and even longer than that 'cause I wouldn't necessarily say I was entirely coherent last time- It's been- ... we
FAWN: hung out
11 years. Okay, so the last- Um ... time you saw him you were in a hospital bed.
MATT: Anyways, um, you know, we've, we've both changed. We're both gonna look different, and it, it's one thing to like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Seems like every time I see a picture [00:20:00] of him I'm like, "What?"
FAWN: And here's where the judgment comes in.
I mean, like I said, every moment is different, and we have to realize that people are different. Day to day, hour by hour my body is different. I put on a pair of jeans in the morning, I'm all skinny, and then an hour later I'm like, "Ugh," you know, like- ... like, "Why are these pants so tight all of a sudden?" Sorry, for other countries pants is trousers.
You know, why are my jeans all of a sudden not... Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. Our bodies, everything is fluid. Everything is, like, moving in and out. The universe is expanding and contracting, okay? Just you're overthinking it. My God.
MATT: That's probably the right answer, too, is I've overthought it. But-
FAWN: But just think about this: it'll never be the same.
So- It'll, exactly ... don't, don't put all those judgments. I think this is the evil [00:21:00] inclination coming in to stopping you from doing what you should be doing, which is just be with your friend. My God. But I know what you mean. Like, I'll get together with people, you know, or like I, I-- It's happened to me, too, like, "Oh, wow, their hair turned white.
You look old. You look fat. You look skinny. What happened?" You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Like, all those thoughts. So y-you don't wanna be judged. "Oh, you're still in the same job? Oh, you're still broke? You're still rich? You're still... You haven't..." Remember that comedian that said when you meet someone and...
Okay, this comedian is really, like, off the wall. I'm not promoting drugs or anything at all, but remember how Katt Williams was saying when they start dealing selling marijuana in 10 years or something like that, if they're, they haven't graduated to something else, then I don't wanna [00:22:00] talk to you. Like, but his, his point was not to sell drugs.
His point, I think, was you better be growing.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Right?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: You better n- you know, you better have elevated- Don't
MATT: shrink ...
FAWN: and experienced and become more.
MATT: Right. Right. But it can be hard if you perceive the other person perhaps as, you know, as we age, theoretically, we diminish physically.
FAWN: So you're afraid of being judged and you're afraid of judging.
MATT: I'm afraid of judging more than I'm afraid of being
FAWN: judged. Please. You, I mean, I used to be very non- nonjudgmental, but now I'm judgy judgy. And it's because of you. You judge, you judge. I- We all judge, I guess.
MATT: I judge left, right, and center-
FAWN: I mean, we have to ... but there are certain things I don't. I mean, especially as parents, we have to judge.
Like, we judge our room. Is this room safe enough for us to go into right now? You know? Um, you ha- you have to judge the atmosphere.
MATT: Is this, is this movie, is this program, um, you know- [00:23:00]
FAWN: I think we- ...
MATT: not a, too adult.
FAWN: Honestly, I think we've gotten to a stage in the world where people are so thin-skinned, meaning they can't handle an opposing thought or an opposing opinion.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: Um, it's ridiculous because th- then we can't have conversations- Right ... because the person is so offended over something that is ridiculous to me. Like, just grow, grow some self-assurance. My gosh. Like, I have a different opinion. Suck it up.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: You know?
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: But i- I forgot what I was just gonna say.
What, what were we saying? Oh, no, I forgot.
MATT: Yeah, you spiraled us off in a new direction.
FAWN: No, it wasn't though. I wasn't going in another direction. What were we saying?
MATT: I think where you were going was this is your friend, you know this person. Yes, they've changed. Yes, everybody is constantly [00:24:00] changing, but at their heart, they're still your friend
FAWN: Okay, that's a synopsis, but I forgot what I was gonna say. Never mind. It was brilliant too, by the way. I'm sorry, honey. Go ahead.
MATT: Sorry, folks. Um, well, this is all gonna feel anticlimactic now.
FAWN: Why? '
MATT: Cause I came to the conclusion. I did.
FAWN: What's the conclusion?
MATT: So, and this is years and years ago, so welcome to now I've gotta start funneling through this particular issue or trauma or whatever. But there was a point in time where I, many years ago, I reconnected physically with a friend who I was being connected to kind of much more sporadically.
It wasn't the same levels that I'm at with, with Steeny. Uh, but we reconnected, and when I reconnected, I realized that, um, yeah- It- ... much like, much like Kat Williams would say, I suppose, that it felt like I had [00:25:00] grown to a point where I had grown away.
FAWN: So you outgrew the person or they outgrew you maybe? Or we outgrew
MATT: each
FAWN: other.
The, the, the relationship was outgrown.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: You know, can I just share something about that that really helps me? I was at the pediatric dentist. This was a few years ago. The kids were having their teeth done, and our dentist was the most philosophical, like the p- the children's dentist was the most beautiful philosophical person.
So while he was like working on the kids, he would talk to me about life, right? Mm-hmm. And we would talk about friendship and everything, and he said, "Especially when you move, you'll find that the first people you become friends with, maybe for the most part they will be like transition friends. They won't be your lifelong friends.
There are some people who kind of usher you into this other room." Do you know what I'm saying?
MATT: I do.
FAWN: And [00:26:00] if y- if we think about life like adolescence, there are some friendships that are adolescent i- in their purpose, right?
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: And they're very important, and it's a huge threshold to cross together, right?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: and then you go into this room. They go into this other room. You study different things. You experience different things. It's hard to come back to those friendships, but I think it's still good to honor what they were of adolescent friendships. And it's not just, I'm not just saying, "Oh, these are your friends from high school that you can't, really be friends with anymore because you have nothing in common."
It could happen at any stage in life.
MATT: True.
FAWN: And don't be so hard on yourself. I don't think it lessens the friendship. It's still a beautiful friendship that still existed, that brought you to who you are right now, and brought you to an understanding of different [00:27:00] kinds of relationships, right?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: You want a friend you can just kick the ball around with and, like, have a goofy time with. There are friends who are friends there for meaningful, deeply felt conversations because that's that experience. You know what I'm saying?
MATT: I do.
FAWN: And then there are the more experienced human beings that carry all of that with them,
we can be goofy one day, we can be really deep one day, we can be sad another day. We can carry all of that experience. But I think it's rare, and I think that comes with experience, right? Right. But anyway, I understand what you mean about friendships from the past, and then you come back together, you're like, "Whoa, there's nothing to keep us going on that same path.
We're not on the same path anymore."
MATT: Right.
FAWN: And it's sad.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: But-
MATT: And I don't wanna be sad.
FAWN: I know. Well, uh, that's why I'm saying just honor [00:28:00] it, right? I know. If we honor it, if you honor it... If I honor that friendship for what it was, then I'm not judging and I can still not... Oh, I can't, I don't know the right word for it.
Not superficial, but I can have, um, a more light friendship. It won't be the friend that I carry huge conversations with anymore, perhaps, or involve in every aspect of life. But it's like, um, it's kind of like, you know, having a sweet light dessert. Do you know what I'm saying?
MATT: I do.
FAWN: Then I hope then you don't feel so sad about it.
I hope you don't put that much pressure on yourself and feel guilty because you're just in a different place. I think that's just the beauty of life.
MATT: Fair enough.
FAWN: Don't be quiet. I feel like I know, like-
MATT: I, I, I feel like I've had a therapy session and now I'm tired. I wanna sleep. I want some chocolate cake, woman.
FAWN: Okay. All right. [00:29:00] I'll bake you a chocolate cake.
MATT: Okay. So that's where I'm at. Thanks for listening.
FAWN: Aw. Okay. All right. Um, okay. Here we go. Have a lovely every day.
I think you should call Steini.
MATT: Be well, everyone.
FAWN: Why don't you schedule a time for him to come visit? Okay, don't do that. Matt just looked up at the sky and put up his hands like I'm talking too much. Okay. All right, everybody, have a lovely every day. We'll talk to you in a few days, hopefully.
MATT: Be, be well.
