Episode Transcript
FAWN: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Our Friendly World, everybody. Hello. We're going back to the art of conversation, the art of conversation at a table, at a gathering. Let's revisit that for a moment. We had a little get-together yesterday, not at our place, at someone else's place, a friend's place. You wanna take it over?
MATT: Ah. Yes. Yes, but first I wanna step back. So, um, so yeah. So basically, uh, to, to frame our discussion, to frame our whole thing is, this guy named, David W. Angel has a kind of a 2D matrix of, how conversations can go, and it goes the X and Y axis. The X axis is one-way and two-way, and the Y axis is competitive and cooperative.
So he's defining it here. So a, a one-way competitive discussion he describes is what I would call a diatribe, and I'm probably mispronouncing it, but [00:01:00] whatever, it's an epitome word. Um- ... but, uh, meaning- Epitome ... it's, it's a word that I read- Di- it's- ... that I had never heard said.
FAWN: I, I think it's diatribe.
MATT: And so do I.
I don't know. But that's how I've always pronounced it. But that's when somebody is just literally emotionally vomiting all over you, and sometimes people need to do
FAWN: that. It's like someone who's venting or angry or just, um, or on a rant, right?
MATT: And it's not, not necessarily- Is
FAWN: that what that is?
MATT: Yes. It's not necessarily about you, although it could be.
That's the worst kind. But they're like, "Oh my God, my boss was..." And they just need to get it out because they need to let somebody know.
FAWN: Well, and, and I feel like there's more of that when that happens. I feel like there's more of it now because we don't have communities where everyone can be heard and everyone can go around and discuss how they're feeling and, bounce things off of one another.
MATT: Absolutely.
FAWN: And I think you, everyone gets to a point where if they have the chance, either in a good way or a bad [00:02:00] way, that, that kind of emotional verbal vomiting happens.
MATT: Right. And, and in some cases it's necessary. But he describes that as kind of a one-way, 'cause you ain't getting in a, a word in edgewise, uh, competitive.
And then a two-way competitive is a straight up old school debate where everybody's trying to score points. and that's one of the key differentiators. So if you're in a debate with somebody, you're trying to score points, you are not gonna make friends. Then we get to the more cooperative, and we get into discourse, and which is a fascinating thing, which is a one-way kind of, uh, quote-unquote "cooperative conversation."
And that's like if you ask somebody an open-ended question and they answer it. So that's real tricky because what you really want is you really want the last one, which is a dialogue, which is everybody's going back and forth, you're exchanging. It allows you to, perhaps build the relationship.
Discourse doesn't necessarily allow you to do that, so, you know, that's another interesting thing. [00:03:00] So, and I've been thinking about that a lot, how to transition from a discourse to a dialogue, and it feels to me like the only way to do it is to ha- is to almost provoke the question and then make sure you involve the other person, make sure you understand why they're asking you that question.
FAWN: It's hard to have a conversation, period- It is ... for so many reasons. One is that people don't have patience, and if you have a pause for, like, two seconds, they jump in there, either change the subject or, or just, you know, try to push their point of view 'cause they got that two-second thing, you know?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: And like I noticed yesterday, you were pausing because We were with a group that definitely has their set ways of thinking, and they asked a question of you in partic- Right ... one, one person. It was
MATT: a
FAWN: programming question. One, one person asked, you know... It, and it could have actually been a great conversation for [00:04:00] everyone, but I think you were, you were trying to be very thoughtful in your response, and in doing that, like, you were thinking about it, and people don't even have the patience to...
I mean, if you saw your face, I could see, even though I'm your partner, I mean, if I wasn't your partner, I could see, okay, he's thinking and he's about to come with a, come back with a thoughtful response to exactly how this guy needs to hear something. You, he was asking you for info.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: And y- and I could tell it could go either...
You were trying to be so thoughtful, but oh my goodness, this person, this other person that didn't have anything to do with the conversation, she interrupted. And thinking of what you... She interrupted in a way that was like, as if she knew what you were going to say and trying to say it [00:05:00] for you. And she's not even a programmer.
Uh, you know, again, it, it was weird to me 'cause I'm like, look at that. There's no patience. There's no room for pause. You know, allow for some quiet. Allow for this person to have the grace to, you know, manufacture or, or pull together the information in a, in a necessary way, in a, in a way that the person can hear it.
N- none of that is happening. And also, I'm finding, and maybe I'm doing it right now, I'm sorry, I'm cutting you off, honey. But- ... but I'm also noticing people don't wanna hear what you have to say. They just wanna say their piece.
MATT: Yeah, and not specifically me is what you're addressing. You're saying people in general don't wanna hear what the other person has to say.
FAWN: Yeah. They're either in pain or... Yeah, no, I'm thinking about- Or they're, or they feel unheard. I'm thinking, I'm thinking about an interaction I had yesterday with completely separate... No, it was the day before [00:06:00] yesterday, where the person was trying to tell me my business, and I was like, "Yes, yes, yes. No, no, no.
I know that. What I'm talking about is A, B, and C." And she didn't wanna hear it. She just wanted to tell me something so, uh, about photography, and she's not a photographer. She was trying to tell me what I can do, and I'm like, "Yes, thank you so much. Actually, I do know that." And I'm-- You know what I'm saying?
And- I
MATT: do ...
FAWN: she got all, uh, really a- like annoyed because she didn't wanna have a conversation. She just wanted to express her knowledge.
MATT: Right. Right, and that's an interesting point. Absolutely.
FAWN: And it wasn't gonna get us anywhere because I could see she was in pain, and she was gonna get further annoyed.
She actually butted into the conversation. Do you know another one?
MATT: Ab-
FAWN: Right? Absolutely. Like she wanted in on the conversation, but didn't want you to speak.
MATT: [00:07:00] Right. Early on when I would go to the Algon- Algonquin Round Table at the gas station, I would- Can
FAWN: you remind me what that means again?
MATT: The Algonquin Round Table was a famous get-together that happened, I think in New York City, of, at the Algonquin Hotel over a lunch where like luminaries, and we're talking serious luminaries, would all get together and talk and just hang out and enjoy each other's company.
But when I was at the gas station's Algonquin Round Table, which is what we sometimes call it, I would say something that I thought was hilarious. Now this is early on, and like everybody would gloss over it, and I'd be like... And I'd repeat it. And I've since learned to just shut up because obviously I'm not as humorous as I think I am.
FAWN: Mm-hmm. Well-
MATT: But that's just it. People feel such the need to be heard.
FAWN: Yeah.
MATT: But that's why in our house, like when we get it, I like to just say, "Heard, chef." I stole that from [00:08:00] "The Bear" actually, but, um, which is a TV series, which is just what people say to make sh- and when a chef is talking to them and making sure that they'll say, "Heard, chef," and then it's over.
Conversation's over. It's like tapping- Right ... on
FAWN: some
MATT: level.
FAWN: Tapping in martial arts means, "Okay, you have me in a lock. I give up." Like, "You're, you're about to hurt me." "You're
MATT: about to break my arm. I'm gonna give up now."
FAWN: Yeah. Let's stop.
MATT: Let's stop and part friends as opposed to-
FAWN: Right ...
MATT: parting my arm.
FAWN: Mm-hmm.
But anyway, back to the conversation yesterday, right?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: So like you, you were already studying this, like you-- This is, was something you were thinking about- Well, I actually- ... the art of conversation?
MATT: I attended a class on this actually for work.
FAWN: Oh, that's right.
MATT: Yeah, which is interesting and just listening to people talking 'cause, uh, my job, oh my goodness, I worked at a massively huge company and there's a lot of what are called freshers or people who are brand new to working and/or [00:09:00] working in this kind of environment because working as a programmer in an office is very different than, say, working just about anywhere else.
And so having an understanding of the art of conversation inside of that. and that was interesting. It was interesting hearing the questions. It was interesting. There's a lot of, "Hey, if you have-- if you actually know something, stand up, say it." You know, even if you're wrong, it's all, it's okay.
It's, it's going to be a safe space. All ideas are welcome. And, you know, people need to hear that kind of stuff, especially people who are brand new because, "Oh, I'm the smartest..." There's always the smartest man in the room. There's, you know, there's certain kind of, uh, archetypes that you see inside of conversations.
There's the smartest man in the room. There's the person who's been there forever, seen it, done it, gotten the T-shirt, but is never gonna really say anything unless you throw out an option that they've heard, like, 10 years before. I remember running into that person. That was very d- difficult. But anyways, um, but for me, you know, kind of my [00:10:00] biggest takeaways are, number one is if I'm asked a question, I'm gonna answer it.
And I did. I did answer his question. I gave it the right thought. I gave him a bad answer at first, and I fixed it, so, 'cause he caught me a little flat-footed. and the other thing is, is, you know, I'm gonna be much more sensitive now when somebody engages me in discourse or a one-way conversation where they say, "Hey, Matt, what's the average velocity of an unladen sparrow?"
Or whatever the question is, to really ask them, you know, once I answer what I know, ask them, you know, "How come?" You know, "Why are you curious about that?" Not in a, in a very sincerely inquisitive way 'cause it could come across as me being, you know, a bit mean. I
FAWN: actually really like that. I, I wanna use that.
I mean, obviously you were talking about in a very respectful environment, but, like, I would like to use that with our nosy neighbor who does not care about us, does not care about anything, but to gain some sort of leverage [00:11:00] on you.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: So, like, she's like, "Oh, I saw this repair truck come up. Um, so what's been happening?
Did you get a flood?" And, you know, so what'd you say? What was the... Like, why is this important to you? Like, what, why do you ask? Yeah.
MATT: Why do you ask?
FAWN: Yeah, like, yeah, to just ask it like that instead of, feeling the pressure to say whatever she wants, you know, to answer her, to give- Right ... information maybe you don't wanna share.
MATT: Right. And maybe I would immediately, like that in particular, 'cause that's a very pointed question, say, um, you know, "Why do you ask? Did, did you have a flood? Did you have somebody you were happy with?" So really bounce it hard back to them.
FAWN: Mm. Yeah, I can't think on my feet
MATT: like
FAWN: that.
MATT: I know. Like- And that's why I'm kinda putting it in my head to, like, ask that question.
FAWN: Yeah.
MATT: And I think I did a reasonable- We need practice ... job of asking that of- Yeah ... the guy who asked me the question.
FAWN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be- and you know, that, that was a very friendly environment.
MATT: That is true.
FAWN: But, like, when [00:12:00] I'm faced with unfriendly or, like, you know, whatever she is, the neighbor-
MATT: Heyo.
FAWN: Um, yeah, I just feel this pressure, like, it just, just doesn't come out right.
Right. You know?
MATT: Right.
FAWN: But that's just-- It's good to remember it's good to practice. And the more conversations we have, even the difficult ones, especially the difficult ones, the more we practice, the better we can get. So yeah, like, "Oh, why do you ask?" Or, "Oh, why is that important?" Right. But see, that, that's, that's, like, pointed, though.
I can't say, "Why is that important?"
MATT: I, I think if you're sincere enough, you can literally say anything, because in point of fact, it doesn't matter what comes out of your mouth, is what they're finding. Even in an interview, it doesn't matter what comes out of your mouth. What matters is how, how they feel talking to you.
FAWN: Hmm.
MATT: And so, you know, creating that comfortable space where they talk to you. Because the one thing I didn't do, you know, you asked me a programming [00:13:00] question, you know, "Hey, do you blah, blah, blah?" And I was like, "Yes. Why yes, I do." But, you know, I'm not... That's the other key is I'm not, you know,
up on top of the mountain staring down and
being a big meanie fulfini.
I'm being genuine. Mm-hmm. I'm being sincere. I'm being honest. I'm being open. I'm being thoughtful, and I'm really considering the question, you know? Yes, thoughtful. In a way that they, they can even hear without me saying it, "That's a good question."
FAWN: Yeah. It's on your face. You can tell. That's a perfect description.
You were being thoughtful. You could see it on your face. You were being thoughtful.
MATT: Because I really wanted to help him out. You asked me-
FAWN: And people don't read the room. They don't read a person's face. Because that other person took that pause while you were being thoughtful-
MATT: Right
FAWN: She took that pause and she's like, she just- Pounce
jumps in. Yes, pounce. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MATT: Well, that's, it, it feels sometimes at those gatherings that people do like to score [00:14:00] points. Like, there's the one guy who always tries to be the funniest. There's, you know.
FAWN: Yeah. Yeah. That sort. Well, you know, and have you... Okay, I don't know if there's a cure for this one, but, like, you're saying something and you're at a, you're at the dinner table, , there's a conversation.
Someone asks a question maybe or you're commenting, and people just start not listening. And I don't think I'm a boring person, and a few times it, that's happened to me, and I don't know how to handle that. So, I mean, the last few times I think I just, just dropped it in the middle of a sentence and no one even noticed.
You know what I'm saying? Right. Like, they'll ask you a question, you're explaining it, and then all of a sudden their attention goes somewhere else and they start talking to the person next to them. It's like, "Excuse me, you just asked me a que..." You know what I'm saying? Right. I, I just feel so incredibly embarrassed and sad.
Like, honestly, I, I, I have to push back tears. I'm like-
MATT: Oh, I'm sorry, babe ...
FAWN: but have you noticed that happens to me a lot?
MATT: I
FAWN: do. I [00:15:00] don't, I don't understand what, why that is.
MATT: I, yes, I do.
FAWN: I mean, I, I have a commanding personality. I don't think I'm boring. Nope. I haven't said anything to offend someone. It's just all of a sudden, it, when there's a group, I think one person thinks, "Well, someone else is listening, so I'm just gonna start talking to this person now."
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Like, it's just so rude.
MATT: It is. It
FAWN: is. What do you do? What would you do if that happened to you?
MATT: Well, okay, so I read a quote that I'm really holding on to tight, and it's like, "You have to earn the right to criticize me. You have to earn that right." And so therefore, I don't care about what random person thinks about anything that I see or do or am, 'cause they haven't earned the right to criticize.
And so if you haven't earned the right to criticize, then I can cut you off right in the middle of what you're saying. And I can et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that sounds really rude and really calloused, but [00:16:00] I'm only gonna do that if you're doing it to me
FAWN: Well, I can't behave badly just because someone behaves badly with me.
But I'll take what you said about not caring. It's like, "Oh, okay, they're not listening. I'm not gonna waste my breath." Right. And I'll just stop, like dead stop. Right. Boom, and just pick up my water or whatever and just sip and, like, look somewhere else. But it's so rude. Right? But it's just, it's embarrassing.
But I think it's probably embarrassing on, like, it shows them misbehaving. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? It
MATT: does. And, and maybe I would make a little comment on the side like, "Oh, okay then." Maybe I would. I probably wouldn't. But in, in many ways it's like, as soon as you wanna start talking over me or as soon as I pause for an instant and you pounce, you know, if, if you're the person who asked me the question, okay then, I guess I answered it well enough for you, and that's fine.
But he- Or maybe you weren't
FAWN: really asking the question ... but he was genuine. He [00:17:00] was waiting for your answer.
MATT: He was waiting for the answer, that's why I gave him the answer.
FAWN: Right. Right. But she was interrupting, and so that's why, like, as your partner, I was like, "Hold on a second."
MATT: You did.
FAWN: You know? You did,
MATT: you did create space for me, and I do appreciate that.
FAWN: Thank you. Thank you. I do my best, you know? So anyway, I'm, I mean, are we, are we good? Is this our lesson for the week?
MATT: Doesn't it feel good?
FAWN: What?
MATT: What we said, what we talked about today.
FAWN: I mean, yeah.
MATT: Well, okay then.
FAWN: I think I'm just stuck on how people ignore me, though. Um, and like, I hope I can remember, I hope I have the grace about me to like ask a very, you know, like the, the neighbor, the way she, confronts me with questions that are private, I wish I had the grace about me to handle that, you know?
I just feel so... I don't know. That's where my head is stuck-
MATT: Right ...
FAWN: so I guess,
MATT: yeah. Right. But she hasn't earned- I'm gonna- ... the right to criticize. She [00:18:00] hasn't earned the right to question. She hasn't earned the right to honesty even necessarily.
I can't lie. Well,
no. I don't wanna lie. I'm not, I'm not saying lie, but- Just let it, just let it drift off.
FAWN: Right. Just say-
MATT: Or change the subject ... "Um,
FAWN: nothing important." I should have said, I, that's how I think, I think how I'll, I'll just come back with, like, if they're asking questions that are private, I'll say, "Oh, it's nothing important."
MATT: Right. Or maybe, like, redirect
FAWN: it- It's no big deal ...
MATT: back to them and, and you could even ask the neighbor, "Oh, are you gonna have that lady mow your lawns for you?"
FAWN: I, uh, see, I
MATT: don't- Which just shows you're, like-
FAWN: That's bad behavior ...
MATT: you're, like, paying attention to what they're doing as much as they're- But see- ... they're paying attention. I know. But see,
FAWN: like I, I-
MATT: And I can be bad like that ... I don't wanna act
FAWN: like them.
MATT: I know, and I can be bad like that. But, you know, for the people who have earned the right, then I have, I, I like to believe I have much more patience.
Not infinite, but I have much more patience.
FAWN: It's just wild dealing with people, honestly. Like- True ... the same neighbor, she has a tree that blocks our [00:19:00] path to our house, so when it snows, we don't have a path to walk on because the tree takes over. And, um, she's always demanding for us to do things constantly, and then she'll complain to HOA about us, and then HOA gets involved, and money is spent, and, like, ridiculous demands she's always making.
And the one time I asked her to do something was, "Hey, can you please... Do you mind please trimming this tree so we have the path to walk on when it's icy? Like, we can't, there's no path. It's blocking our path." And she called me demanding
MATT: But that's a reflection of her.
FAWN: But, but again, like we were talking about like dialogue, right?
And we were talking about, um-
MATT: That's more of a diatribe.
FAWN: No, no, no, no. A diatribe. No, no. What's the wor- Last week we were talking about projection.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. Someone who's obviously so demanding, and then [00:20:00] you ask one thing and they call you demanding. Just, I don't know, people can really try you.
So try not to take things personally as well in conversations, you know?
MATT: Yes.
FAWN: Just watch people. So anyway, that's it with me, for me. Okay. You too?
MATT: Sounds good.
FAWN: All right. So we'll talk to you in a few days. Have a beautiful every day.
MATT: Be well.
Bye.
