Episode Transcript
FAWN: [00:00:00] Okay. There's a measuring cup. You guys, in this episode we're going to talk about that.
MATT: A measuring cup.
FAWN: There's a measuring cup that's been in our relationship. All the third
MATT: member of our relationship, the measuring cup,
FAWN: it came from the time we began as a couple. It was a gift while we were dating from Matt and almost caused us to break up.
But. If you listen, we will tell you how this measuring cup, how we use it and how
it's a good reminder emphasizing honesty, authenticity, and clarity over games and mixed signals looking at how things and people need to measure up for our self-worth for a healthy relationship. Thanks for tuning in. Here we go.
Welcome back to our Friendly World everybody. Matt [00:01:00] took a sip of coffee. Hold on one second. Hello. There you go. Welcome back . Okay, so a long time ago, I think in the nineties, it was I think 1996, a book came out called The Rules and it was for women, , who felt frustrated by dating.
In secret a lot of women, young women, we would pass around this book and talk about it. And we would try to do it because we always seemed to break all these rules without knowing. And, and then there was a lot of backlash against this book, and we will get into that.
But I wanna revisit some of that because it's been on my mind a lot lately. A lot.
MATT: Okay.
FAWN: so I just wanted to bring it up. I actually went to the library to check it out because I got rid of it. Because there are times when you look at it, you're like, this is so. Cave Manish, like, it's not evolved, but it's not true.
That's not true. It's, that's when you start looking at and listening [00:02:00] to people that, uh, try to change your beliefs for their own agendas. And I think there's a not, I think I know a whole lot of that happening right now. It's happening to our kids. It's happening everywhere. It's happening in politics where, I mean.
I mean, just, I, I, I don't wanna get into it, but to, to just describe it this way, which a friend of mine describes it is what was up is now down. What was down is now up. Everything has been so topsy-turvy and there's no middle ground anywhere. So anyway,
another reason this book was popular was because we needed something simple with actionable guidelines because we had no mentors, no parental figures to say, Hey, this is how you should be. This is what you do in this situation. This is right, this is wrong. We had none of that.
Mm-hmm. Especially Gen X. Right. We raised ourselves
MATT: truth.
FAWN: Alright, so,
I'm going to, I think there were like [00:03:00] 35 rules. Yes.
MATT: 35.
FAWN: 35. I just like randomly got 10 here. Okay. Should I go through them?
MATT: Yeah, absolutely.
FAWN: Alright. Uh, number one, or not number one, but one of them was, uh, be a creature unlike any other. True. And let's take a look at this, not just for dating. Sorry, that was my phone.
Okay. Let's take a look at this for friendship. Let's take a look at it in a platonic way. Alright, not just for dating, right? Alright, so be a creature unlike any other. Isn't that what we've been saying is like, be original, be thoughtful. Don't be like trying to listen to only yourself and be the one that's talking all the time, but have some mystery about yourself.
Right? Have something interesting that people can be attracted to. Right.
MATT: Well, I would argue that part of it is, follow whatever your path is and don't sweat it too much. As far as like, if you are really [00:04:00] all about, you know, the ashes, which is a rugby contest between England and India.
If you're all about that, be all about that, for goodness sake. Don't, don't be like everyone else in, let's say America, who doesn't care about it. You know, do what you do.
FAWN: Be original. Original, right. Don't follow the trend, don't follow the thought patterns that everyone else is jumping on.
Because a lot of the stuff that's happening now, especially I hope in a few years would be like, what was I thinking? Because I, I'll tell you right now, I have lost so many friends. By choice. Like I've walked away to the point where I'm kind of like a hermit right now because I feel like, so many people have glommed on to a a certain ideology.
And I'm like, don't you understand this is hurting people? Like the way you're thinking and the way you're behaving is not okay. Anyway, I don't wanna get into that too much. But, um, another one was, don't talk to a man [00:05:00] first. Now we were talking about this and saying, okay, let's go through some of the rules.
And some of them were definitely big no-nos in friendship. However, I'm like, yeah, that's true. Like you should totally be talking to people. However, if you want to know if the person you have as a friend is truly a friend, why don't you just like hold back and see if they ever call you? Do they ever text you?
Are you the one who always initiates everything? And if that's the case, quietly just step away. Step away and put your focus somewhere else. And
MATT: it depends on the type of friendship that you have and that you want to have with this person. Maybe, you know, you call this person because they get concert tickets,
FAWN: right?
But it's not, and we're talking about true friendship here. Well,
MATT: okay, but there are different.
FAWN: That's when you're using people. Yes. That's not Nichomachean and ethics tells us us different levels, so that's not our goal. Okay. Our goal here is to develop true. [00:06:00] We'll
MATT: stay, we'll stay focused on the true,
FAWN: true, meaningful friendships.
But here comes the other one. Don't call him and rarely return his calls, which is kind of what I just said. Right? Right. So if you wanna find out if someone is truly your friend. Are they still with you? Like, are you the only glue? Is it a one-sided sticky type situation?
MATT: Right? And, and there of course, it's ironic because if, if you absolutely never call them, then yeah, there you go.
FAWN: Another one was always end phone calls first. And I was telling Matt, lately I've been ending phone calls. My entire life, I always waited for the person, friend to hang up, you know, to not to hang up first, but to end the call first. And there were times where I really needed to go, but I didn't wanna be rude.
And I, I, I just felt bad for ending the phone call and then they would do it and I, every time they did mm-hmm. I felt like I lost a lot of my power. You [00:07:00] know? Mm-hmm. Because it gives them the upper hand and, and it's, uh, it's an unspoken thing. This is my opinion that happens where they feel empowered.
Right. You know, they take away your power in a way, on some
MATT: level, but I do appreciate when I would fall asleep when we were talking to each other on the phone that you didn't just hang up.
FAWN: Yeah. When we were dating, all of a sudden I would hear, because we would talk for hours and hours, and when you're lying down.
MATT: Oh my goodness. On the
FAWN: phone
MATT: having a cozy, comfy conversation. Oh god.
FAWN: Anyway, um, Okay, so here's where the measuring cup comes in. Stop dating him if he doesn't buy a romantic gift. So while we were dating, I think it was the first gift you ever gave me right? Was a measuring cup.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: I was so offended.
And I'm like, whoa. Because in the rules it says if you don't get romantic gifts, it means he's not interested in, in you in a romantic way. [00:08:00] And so I got a measuring cup, you guys, first of all, I mean, I'm Persian. I don't measure things. I always use my, even with baking, I don't think it's a science like how everyone says, this was
MATT: all new in our relationship.
This was brand new. However, point of order. I would like to cite that that is not the actual rule. The actual rule is. You have to receive romantic gifts on Valentine's Day and your birthday.
FAWN: It was the first gift you ever gave me. Now. Yes,
MATT: but specifically cited in the book, it cites Valentine's Day and your birthday.
FAWN: I love how you remember point of
MATT: order. Point of order.
FAWN: I think was it after we got married, I shared the book with you. I'm like, look at this. Despite, despite all these rules, look at it. We made it, but we made it because I already knew you were committed. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, I was, that book was for women who couldn't have someone to commit to that.
Well
MATT: also who couldn't discern that they had someone to commit. And also I was being authentic.
FAWN: Well, it was kind of [00:09:00] presumptuous, wasn't because I never measure even to the, to this day, now I try to, and we always use that measuring cup, by the way. You still have that
MATT: darn measuring cup.
FAWN: And, um, I like it.
It's the only thing that's actually lasted one of the things that'll, it's lasted in our kitchen as far as like mm-hmm. Stuff like that. Um, but it's, it just, I was like, what do you mean? First of all,
MATT: first of all, just looking daggers at me, folks, like,
FAWN: are you saying I was a bad cook? You know, like what?
What is this about? Why? What do you want me to, why are your eyebrows going up? First of all, I didn't really cook back then, but it's really interesting though because I never thought I would become or have my own bakery, which I did, I developed all these recipes for vegan pastries, and this was a long time ago.
I'm obsessed with cooking and baking. So I think that was one of those gifts that you saw in the future with like, it was a symbolic thing now that I look back on it, [00:10:00] I see the beautiful symbolism in it. Stop batting your eyelashes like that. I'd love
MATT: to say I was that smart, but I wasn't.
What I saw was I was, I was. Telling you I was paying attention. That was one way I could show you I was paying attention. Right. 'cause I noticed that you were cooking and you didn't have a measuring cup.
FAWN: I didn't want one. Uh
MATT: uh, uh, uh uh. That's beside the point,
FAWN: but actually on some level, okay. Deep down I actually, and that's rude to say, but deep down, I actually wanted stuff like that.
I could never afford to have like gadgets and stuff for the kitchen. So, so I
MATT: got you a practical, but somewhat nice measuring cup. I didn't get you like the $10 million, but I didn't get you the $2. But
FAWN: that's a very good example of friendship because noticing what the person may need, you know, but then also communicating like, Hey, this is why I got it.
Instead of like letting the person stew for many years over. Like, here you go. What do you mean? What does this [00:11:00] mean? What. Anyway, another ruler was, don't rush into sex and other rules for intimacy.
MATT: But we're not gonna comment on that one, right?
FAWN: Well, no. The thing is that, you know, like don't rush into it.
I've always compared myself to a golden retriever like a dog. I'm like jumping in to be best friends with you right away. Mm-hmm. And one of my friends, Wendy, like, without doing it on purpose, but in such a loving way, trained me to have patience. You know, and to have things blossom over time and over time to realize, hey, we have so much in common.
Hey, this is a lasting long haul forever friendship. Right. You know? Mm-hmm. Instead of just jumping into it and going, Hey, you are my best friend. I love you so much. You know what I'm saying? Which is what I tended to do.
PAUSE: Right.
FAWN: Alright. Don't expect a man to change. Yeah. Don't expect people to change.
MATT: Don't expect your friend to change.
Right. Don't expect you can. You can show
FAWN: accepting [00:12:00] them as they are, but
MATT: you need to accept, you know, as they are.
FAWN: Yes, as is. Which is Nichomacian number three. What was another one? ,
There was one about be honest but mysterious. How would you equate that to a friendship role?
MATT: Mysterious
FAWN: share, but don't overshare. Right. Okay. I think in certain situations, you know.
MATT: I was thinking about like maybe like planning to do something fun with them and like, you know, going for it just a smidge. Yeah.
FAWN: Honestly, there have been some friends in our circle that shared way too much about like their, oh my goodness, their personal stuff that I really didn't need to hear.
Like certain friends would tell me about things in their marriage, like sexual stuff, and I'm like, why are you telling me this? This is none of my business. Oversharing. Right. But, and then I've been thinking about it. I'm like, this person was traumatized mm-hmm.
They really wanted to talk about [00:13:00] it, but I, I was not prepared for that. 'cause we didn't have that kind of friendship. So that was oversharing. Mm-hmm. Like, not reading the room, but needing to get it out of them. Right. You know, like you just needed to express it, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, I remember, when we first became parents, we had so much trauma at the hospital and we had no one to talk to about it.
So whoever we would meet, we would start cry. I would start crying and like telling them what happened and I could see on their faces like I was oversharing and they didn't know what to do. They didn't want to do anything like they were trying to escape. But I needed, I needed an outlet and. Therapy wasn't helping.
I needed friends that I felt like had my back, right. And we didn't have that. So I was just oversharing with anyone that was there. If you can just sit quietly and be with whatever happened to you, if you allow yourself to feel it, it just needs to have a voice. Like how you need to have a voice to [00:14:00] express something. The trauma needs to be seen. That's my advice from personal experience. there was another one in the last one for today. don't live with a man or leave things in his apartment.
Wow. Before commitment. I guess that kind of also, um, goes into what I just said about oversharing. Don't put a whole load on someone thinking that,
MATT: thinking that they won't leave it outside their house. Oh, that too. And ask you to pick it up.
FAWN: Well, no, no, no. Like thinking that, they'll keep it there in their sphere, you know, they may like take it and use it as gossip.
Right. That's true. You don't know if they're a true friend or not. Maybe they can't handle it, so they end up gossiping. Gossiping basically, you know? Mm-hmm. So it's just, it's interesting, looking at the criticism of it, of this book, as it came out, I remember people saying, oh my God, this is so outdated and it has such rigid [00:15:00] gender rules and everything.
And that's the one thing that I remembered that I was talking to you about in the kitchen. And right when I said that, our youngest came in and overheard me say, yeah, about the gender rules and totally started talking about, yeah, like trad wives and. How everyone is totally bashing trad wives. I'm like, hold on.
Do you understand that from my perspective, how people are bashing trad wives? You're basically saying me. You're saying anyone who is traditional, anything that is like a normie is clueless, has nothing going on in the brain that is doing whatever the husband says. You know, like it, and I think our kid paused a little bit, hopefully, I don't know.
MATT: Well, I think when our child bounced towards, uh, husband won't let them dye their hair. I mean, they, they went to the real extremes and [00:16:00] I was like, okay, not that dye your hair is this, but, um, you know, if, if your husband is that controlling of you, that's abuse. I think that's what stopped them. And again, with friendship, you know, if, if your friend is trying to control you, if
FAWN: that's, that's called having an unhealthy relationship.
It has nothing to do with being traditional.
PAUSE: Nothing.
FAWN: And I think the same people, I think they're bashing women basically by creating this term, uh, Trad wife. They're bashing women. And, and it's happening in so many ways right now. You know, I, I, um. I take major objection to that and not, not that I'm a traditional wife, but I am in certain ways, you know,
MATT: but also you, do you, I mean, that's welcome, welcome to one of the key, you know, key, uh, capstones for friendship.
PAUSE: Mm-hmm.
MATT: Be you. And if, [00:17:00] if that's you, then that's you. And to me that was always kind of the big issue with the rules is, you know, you, you do, you now obviously you've discovered that what you've been doing isn't working for you otherwise you wouldn't be in the self-help section looking for relationships.
But like,
FAWN: remember what happened a few days ago, or was it last week? I don't know. The time goes by so fast. Things were kind of like melting together. But, um, it was a Saturday morning and. I had just gotten up, I went to my desk and I had a lot to do and you come up and, you know, we haven't seen each other that much because, the schedules have been really, different lately.
MATT: Off kilter. Yes,
FAWN: off kilter. And not that we're not together, but there's just been so much going on and. And I was thinking, wow, you and I don't even go out on dates anymore. Like I have to fight for your attention between the kids. The kids need to be with you. We all need one-on-one time with one another, as well as to together time, all of us together.
Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] And with trying to work and make a, making money to survive. There's no time for that. Right. And that was my original point of contention and that's why I started the whole friendship movement is because I noticed that that's what happens, especially in our American culture. We're working so hard, to make ends meet.
And even the people that are wealthy, they're still working so hard. There's no time for friends. There's no time. Everyone remember we did episodes about it in the very beginning, the four letter word, busy, right? I'm so busy. I'm busy. Oh, I'm busy. And when anyone would say that to me, and no one says that to me anymore, if they know me and if they use it, they like profusely apologize for using the word busy.
Mm-hmm. I'm like, you know. Everyone's busy, but like, instead of saying, I'm busy, say, I am washing my car today, my hair, whatever, or I need to do this. Don't just say busy, but we are so busy that it's hard to [00:19:00] have meaningful connections.
MATT: It is,
FAWN: it's hard to have that time where you're just quiet together maybe, or even just by yourself to stop and reflect or stop and calm down and stop and anchor yourself and feel grounded.
None of that, it's, it's a constant Go, go, go. So you came up to me. Well, I had rushed down. I'd just gotten up, brushed my teeth and taken care of the stuff. Went to my desk and I was like, okay, open up the computer. I had so much. I had a list of things and you come up, you're like, you wanna go on a date right now?
I'm like, why didn't you ask me a few days ago? And that's one of the rules is. In that book was, do not ever accept a date. Oh, if they're asking you on Monday, you cannot go on a date. You cannot accept it until, I think it was after Wednesday or Thursday.
MATT: Right? It was Wednesday.
FAWN: They need to schedule with you.
Right. [00:20:00] And it, it seems harsh, but really it's about self-respect and, and I was like, and that's another case where the book came up in my head. I'm like, and I looked at you and I said, Matt. I would love to go on a date with you and I've been wanting to ask you, but why are you asking me at the last second?
Like, I can't right now. I want to, I just felt disrespected in a way, like what I'm doing doesn't matter. So like you can just drop whatever you can because now I'm done with my stuff. I can go for coffee and wanna go right now. And as much as I love being spontaneous when you are so rushed for. Time rushed by time.
It just feels like if the person has the courtesy to say, Hey, next weekend, let's do this at this time. There's such a sense of, uh, honor about it. Don't look away. Matt looks all guilty. Matt.
MATT: Yes. [00:21:00]
FAWN: What I'm saying is I totally wanna go out on a date with you. I just wanna be asked and given some time. So I can figure out my, my schedule.
It sounds so awful for me to say that. I'm sorry. And I'm looking at your face now. I feel like crap. I don't know.
MATT: It's, it's a, it's a tricky one and I get it. And you know, there have been points in the past where I've, you know, tried to, you know, schedule something, but then it feels like you rush so hard to make the time.
And I feel terrible for that.
FAWN: Well, you are also, I gotta rush stickler so we can
MATT: relax,
FAWN: right? Ah, that doesn't feel right. You, you're very British in that if we have to be somewhere or leave at three, if you're not at the door with your shoes on, your coat on, ready to go, you get upset. Understandably so. I get it.
But I, I am, [00:22:00] I, I operate different, differently. We've talked about this before. I don't wanna really get into it, you know, because I was always taking care of something, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. It wasn't just me putting on my shoes and my coat, it was, oh wait, this happened with this kid. Okay, let me fix that before we go.
Oh wait. I just realized they didn't eat anything, even though I made food for them, we can't go out unless they eat, you know, or whatever. It's, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's always something for me to take care of and then I'm late. So anyway, I'm rushing, rushing, rushing.
MATT: But anyways, we're not, we're not doing a podcast error individual whatevers.
And I, I do get it and I do try, but. Let's face it, folks. I'm, I'm trying to, we can always try a little harder
FAWN: anyway. Anyway, but going back to the rules.
MATT: Going back to the rules.
FAWN: The rules of the game, the rules of friendship. You know what? I'm gonna write down all my [00:23:00] rules for friendship. That's what I'm gonna do.
All right? Should we do our own book?
MATT: Maybe
FAWN: a book of rules.
MATT: We shall see.
FAWN: Alright. Is there anything else you wanna add?
MATT: Yes, as, as a matter of fact, there is. There's one rule that you forgot that I think is just plain old. Good. Well,
FAWN: I just picked out 10.
MATT: That is just plain old. Good. It's the last rule.
FAWN: I can't believe you remember all this.
I don't even remember. What was it?
MATT: Be easy to live with. That's it. In friendship, try and bring a lightness to it. In relationships, try and bring a lightness to it. Sometimes you can Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you, sometimes you're the bugs, sometimes you're the windshield. It's just
FAWN: what does that mean?
What does that mean? Right? Why would you use that as a nail?
MATT: Sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail. But no, there are points in time where it is very, very difficult. We go through, we all go through difficult times, but you know, in general, [00:24:00] try and be easy to live with.
FAWN: That's all. Why are you looking at me?
I'm very easy live to live with. I do try to be easy to live with. Oh my God. And I know that there are points
MATT: in time. My goodness. I am impossible.
FAWN: Me too. But like, it, it's not just marriage, it's, it goes for friendship. Absolutely. It's the same rule. Does same, same, same.
MATT: There you go.
FAWN: Okay. Okay. Alright. So we'll talk to you in a few days.
MATT: Be well
FAWN: Have a beautiful every day.
MATT: Bye-Bye.
