Episode Transcript
How does friendship get affected by this form of social contagion that involves the spontaneous spread of emotions and behaviors right now? We discuss pthe past and present and try to come up with answers to create a friendlier environment.
Emotional Contagion
FAWN: [00:00:00] Hello? Hello, hello,
MATT: hello,
FAWN: hello. Welcome to our Friendly World. Two quick stories to explain. Two stories,
MATT: happy stories.
FAWN: I don't know. There are two examples of friendship and what's happening, , in relation to the subject matter of today. Okay. Alright. So first story, it was a bright, beautiful, happy day.
Like outside the sun was shining, birds chirping. I was in a state of fear, anxiety, and all the hard emotions I was feeling like I was having a bad day is what I'm trying to say. And it was, uh, it was intense and I. I, I don't remember why I left the apartment. This was in Santa Monica. There was a bus stop right directly in front of the building.
So in that mood that I was in, I went out right. Thinking, [00:01:00] whatever. I'm not gonna affect anyone. I, I wasn't thinking that I was really affecting anyone. I was in such a bad state. Mm-hmm. The bus opened, I got on the bus,
I don't know how to describe it. I'm, I'm, I know I'm repeating myself, but, but just picture it, it was, I was in my own bubble of what I thought was a bubble of not the best vibes.
MATT: Okay.
FAWN: And thinking it's just my inner stuff. It's not going to affect anyone else. But as soon as I got on the bus, the bus got into an accident, like as soon as I got on the bus, crashed
and I knew without a shadow of a doubt, it was my fault. It was my energy. Mm-hmm. I couldn't prove it. No one could prove it, but I knew it was my fault. I felt like my energy was so big that it, it ripple affected everything around me. So that was a lesson, and from that day forward, I made sure to [00:02:00] always check myself and always make sure that I'm contained, like the emotions are contained.
So that number one, and this will come back to the subject that we're talking about today, but just knowing how we affect other people. How our existence, good or bad there is a huge ripple effect.
Another story is, and I've talked about this a few times 'cause I'm still trying to come to terms with it, but there's this friend who, you know, one of my closest friends
she's way conservative., I am not, Matt thinks I'm a total lefty, and I don't think I am. I think I'm central. But he thinks centrists are leftists.
MATT: No, I don't believe that. But you are a leftist, but let's continue on, shall we? I don't think I'm a leftist. Let's continue on. Shall No, no, but that,
FAWN: but that's the whole point of this that we're talking about.
Okay. So my friend is, okay. Would you say she's very conservative? Okay. Very conservative. So, [00:03:00] um, this was a year back and, um, we normally don't talk about politics, but we did this, you know, we did this one day and she said something, um. She asked me a question, she said, I wanna know why you're so scared of this other political party coming in.
And I said, well, I have some concerns. She's like, what are your concerns? And my concerns were, and I told her, and I didn't even say anything. This is all I said was, I am worried about, um. One of the issues I have is with women's rights and with health healthcare. Mm-hmm. Um, and then she snapped back at me saying that I'm brainwashed.
Yep. And she's like, why don't you just go vote for the other person and get all the abortions you want, as if like, I'm getting dessert, I'm [00:04:00] ordering dessert. Like it was so offensive. And when she said that. I mind you, I was, , trying to understand and accept, fully accept, her point of view because I trusted mm-hmm.
Um, her intellect, you know, I respect her, but that was so harsh and when she said that all the other ugly things that were said that I let slip by because it didn't wanna get into a confrontation. Mm-hmm. Like. Terrible things that were said. I just, it all came back to remind me. Look, she's not the be best person to be talking to, you know what I'm saying?
But one of the things I did notice, she said, but she also added that I was completely brainwashed and she can't talk to anyone like me. You are obviously brainwashed. Mm-hmm. But, and that's all I said was these are my two concerns. Right. I'd like to know your perspective. Mm-hmm. Like, how come you're okay with [00:05:00] it?
Um, she couldn't answer it
and the other thing that she added was how completely brainwashed I was completely brainwashed. And as soon as she said that, I, I said, and I do believe this, that yeah, you're right. I, I'm sure I am brainwashed, but I think we are all brainwashed. And that was it. Like our friendship has never been the same since that day.
Like we don't even talk anymore. But the brainwashing thing, how, how, Matt, what do you think? How is it possible that one side would not be brainwashed at all? Is that possible? I'm not saying left or right, I'm just saying. Is it possible for a good portion and I'm, and the country is split. Is it possible that one side is not brainwashed at all?[00:06:00]
Why are you quiet?
MATT: I like being quiet. Okay. I'm gonna rebut, here's my word. Are you ready? It's, it's good one. Marmite or Vegemite? Why don't we eat that here? Why is that in America not something you can put on a slice of bread and eat?
FAWN: Well, because we're used to sweet, we're used to peanut butter and jelly, so the peanut butter would be the most savory thing.
We're not used to that yeasty thing. We're
MATT: surrounded in a bubble of non Vegemite Marmite talk and exposure. We're not exposed to Vegemite. I'm just gonna say Vegemite. Now we're not exposed to Vegemite, period. That's what it is. So we're brainwashed [00:07:00] against Vegemite. Wow. Wow. Right.
FAWN: Yeah.
MATT: Every once in a while, somebody makes the leap and you know, all of a sudden they try the Vegemite and they probably go nuts for it, but that's not part of the standard vocabulary here.
So again, entering into a world of, you know, I am sure I am certain, I'm like a hundred percent certain at the height of the McCarthyism era where we were all trying to smoke out the commies in entertainment and in politics and every and in society, you weren't gonna find much of a, a space for people to discuss the benefits of communism.
FAWN: No. Because you could get in trouble, thrown in jail, lose your job, and, and you had, um, your neighbors spying on you. Right. And like. Ratting on you for anything. But again, you're existing
MATT: inside of a anti-communist brainwashing [00:08:00] bubble. Yeah, and I'm not saying brain. Okay. Brainwashing has the lamentable terrible connotations of being a godawful thing because that was the original context it was put in because brainwashing was taking our POWs and making them hate America and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, through and also through beatings and tortures and all sorts of other terrible things.
FAWN: An example. Other examples are Patty Hurst or anyone who's taken hostage and you know what, what, what's that term called? Where you end up? Um, Stockholm syndrome. Stockholm Syndrome. But, but hold
MATT: on. I didn't necessarily, I don't wanna leap into all those terrible things, but like, if I grew up in ...just talk about how I grew up. I grew up in the suburbs and we went, I was a Lutheran and we went to church every Sunday and Sunday school and everything else. That was normal. I didn't even understand [00:09:00] Democrats, the Democratic point of view because it was never presented to me ever. Certainly not, um, presented to me as anything that was qu that could be in any way.
Good. Which is a little shocking considering tricky Dick and all the rest of the stuff that happened. But I
FAWN: understand that. But what, how do you answer the question? I pose, but exist in bubbles. Yeah. But obviously like when you talk to other people who are, who think, by the way, they think that they're radically different from you and really they're not.
I mean, I, I'm not, I don't agree with probably half of the things of this certain political party that people assume I'm part of. I don't, I don't, that's why I'm saying I'm centris or I'm not, I'm not either one. Man's smiling like in disagreement, but, but what's, what My question is [00:10:00] it? My question is, I'll just bring it to her.
Do you think she's not brainwashed?
MATT: No, no, no. Like I'm the only
FAWN: one who's brainwashed.
MATT: Everybody who has had their mind changed by something they saw or heard has been brainwashed. And it can be something small and it can be something good, and it can be something. All it, it runs a full gamut. So I, it is like using the term brainwashing feels like not, not quite the right term.
Well, and let's, I'd almost rather just say influenced,
FAWN: okay. This is the second part of our conversation, so I wanna revisit what we're talking about now. But going back to the first one of stepping on a bus and, you affecting everyone else around you? I mean, in a way, like this particular friendship, the conversation, the things that were said or not said, that also ripples and changes behavior and everything.
Mm-hmm. On a daily basis, we're not even aware of it. And if we are aware of it, there's so many aspects to it that are flying around that you can't, there's no time to say, Hey, [00:11:00] what do you mean by this? Or, what do you mean by that? When you don't have that much time to begin with, to have a good conversation because you're dealing with other things that is taught most on your minds.
Right. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. That when things come up or a look comes up, or a word comes up, or something that was said that was off key comes up, you can't really talk about that because it will take you away from the conversation that once again was at the topmost part of the mind.
You know what I'm saying? Yes. Okay. So this leads me to the topic today of the emotional contagion. So let's just learn about it as we go. I'll tell you what I'm reading some definitions.
Emotional contagion is the phenomenon where one person's emotions and related behaviors influence another person's emotion and behaviors often unconsciously. It's a form of social contagion where emotions spread from one person to another or within a group. [00:12:00] This can involve both positive and negative moods and can be triggered by various cues like facial expressions, body language, and even environmental factors like music or atmosphere.
Um. By the way, I'm just reading what is on the internet, how it works. Mimicry and synchronization individuals tend to unconsciously mimic and synchronize their facial expressions, vocalizations. Postures and movements with those of others leading to emotional convergence.
Then there's triggering mechanisms. Emotional contagion can be triggered by direct interactions, like conversations or by observing others' behavior, both in person and through media, like social media. There's the physiological and neurological basis. Studies suggest that emotional contagion may have a physiological [00:13:00] and neurological basis with individuals, potentially simulating others' emotions through neural and
physiological representations. Okay. The wording here is really weird. Wow. And it was really hard to read, but I think what that means is when you are with friends, your brain changes. Mm-hmm.
MATT: Yeah. But let's, let's even roll that back and, and, you know, I was thinking about it.
How did, how did you, okay, so we have kids, we watch them grow. How did they learn how to eat? With like, you know, a spoon or a fork or chopsticks. Chopsticks is a probably a better one.
FAWN: They had to figure out the space. Like hand eye coordination.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Or mouth eye in this case. Yeah, exactly. Um, they had to learn how to swallow 'cause they only could drink. Right, right. So remember our first meal, like that was the first solid food ever. It was a big deal, but we had to make sure it was safe. The other thing is, is is
MATT: they learn from [00:14:00] us.
They learn from mimicking us. They learn from following us, right? So you learn how to behave, how to act from an early age by mimicry,
FAWN: right? Yeah.
MATT: I mean, for anybody who has ever walked into a meeting, an interview. Let's just say interview for a moment. No. Let's say meeting meetings are more fun. Anybody who's ever walked into a meeting,
you ever walked into a meeting and you have been so completely unsure of how to act. Until somebody comes along and starts the meeting, and then all of a sudden it all starts to make sense. Or one person is like, Hey, how's it going? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, oh, okay then, but like you're looking around for how, how, how is this gonna go down?
How am I supposed to be? How is. How is period
FAWN: And sometimes there are no cues. Like, and sometimes there aren't. My first, my first dinner at your parents' house with you, I [00:15:00] tried to follow the cues that I thought were there, but there are certain cues that were not there, right? And. God forbid I passed this one dish.
Oh, oh my
MATT: God. No, no, no. The opposite cannot pass it. Opposite
FAWN: counterclockwise. And you guys, all of you in unison were so bent out of shape because I passed the peas to the left rather than the right, wrong, like it was supposed to all go in one direction. Correct. Oh my God.
MATT: Correct. That's just how it's done in the Northern Hemisphere.
Don't you know? Good
FAWN: Lord. Anyway,
MATT: but anyways, no, but what I'm saying is that's part of how we figure things out is by mimicry, and that's how we ha start to understand like, you know, the first time you're super young yeah. You're, you're at a funeral. How are you supposed to behave? Right? Well, you look around, everybody is somber.
Okay. I need to be somber. So now you are arranging your emotions in context of the dynamic that you're in.
FAWN: Yeah. But I think what this is saying is [00:16:00] that your Brains start wiring together. Well, that's just it. Something you can't
MATT: see. You're getting reinforcement for acting a certain if you act, but also changes your the right way, you get reinforcement for it.
Yeah,
FAWN: but this is different. This is talking about your neurological, things that fire and wire together Yes. That you can't see. Right, right. And like, what do you call those things that keep time when you're playing the piano metronome? Like there's this study of, you see a whole bunch of metronomes, they're like 300 of them in the room.
Neither one of them is in sync. Mm-hmm. But after a while they all sync up perfectly. There's a word for that. Um, resonance is it, but like it's the same thing with our brains.
MATT: But yet, but that's exactly what I'm saying though, is because, ostensibly, you get the dopamine hit from behaving the way you're supposed to or the the negative.
You don't get a dopamine hit when you don't, so your brain starts wiring itself toward the pleasurable emotions [00:17:00] or sensations.
FAWN: Are you saying there's less chaos if all the brainwaves are exactly the same?
MATT: Well, okay. We can, we can work, we can work with that perhaps,
FAWN: and maybe that's why people don't like to talk about things that are totally opposite of what they believe.
Right. Which by the way, as I was reading this all of a sudden I was thinking, oh, by the way, there's one more. There's mirror neuron system. The mirror neuron system. MNS is believed to play a role in emotional contagion by bridging the gap between perceiving and experiencing emotions. Do you know what that means?
I don't think I quite understand what it's saying.
MATT: Perceiving emotions and.
FAWN: The mirror neuron system is believed to play a role in emotional contagion by bridging the gap between perceiving and experiencing emotions. So I guess there's a, there's a gap in between, like, when someone lies to me, my brain pauses, and I've learned to take that physical cue that my [00:18:00] body's telling me.
Like all of a sudden I go blank. So now I'm realizing for me that's a cue that what they said mm-hmm. Doesn't compute. Not because I don't understand it, it's because I can sense a lie. You know what I'm saying? Right. Like, it, it's in between, it's like mind the gap. Within that gap, there's so much information.
So if you can become sensitive to awake to it, to understand what is happening or not happening or why you're reacting a certain way to take a look at that in a split second. Mm-hmm. To go why? Yes.
MATT: Yeah. But I'm not sure that that, that applies to what they're talking about.
Probably not here, which is the different, perceiving the emotion. So I see that you're upset and experience it. I then become upset.
FAWN (2): Oh,
MATT: right. Mm-hmm. You know, in the same way that. Oh my God, I, I can't imagine. But if I see someone I love cry, I can't help it anymore. Right. I can't help it anymore.
FAWN: Right, [00:19:00] right.
Absolutely. So as I was reading this, all of a sudden I'm like, well. What does cognitive dissonance mean? So I looked that up. Like it, it just came screaming in my head. Cognitive dissonance.
MATT: We got resonance. Dissonances dis. We've got contagions. All right, so, and now we've got dissonances. So then
FAWN: I looked up.
What that meant. Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced when holding two or more conflicting beliefs, ideas, or values. This conflict creates a state of unease that motivates individuals to reduce the dissonance often by changing their beliefs, behaviors, or attitudes. So let me read on just a little bit more then we can discuss.
So here's a more detailed explanation definition. Cognitive dissonance occurs when a person's actions, [00:20:00] beliefs, or values are inconsistent with each other. Mm-hmm. Leading to a feeling of psychological discomfort according to WebMD. Okay. Cause. The inconsistency between cognitions, which are thoughts, beliefs, attitudes, values, creates a state of tension, making individuals feel uncomfortable and motivated to reduce this feeling, which makes sense that my friend completely stopped talking to me.
MATT: It's easier,
FAWN: right? Like I was open to her point of view. Mm-hmm. Totally. And I kept saying that she wanted nothing to do with it.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: End of friendship.
MATT: Right, because that is one answer to that question. Now I have friends who are very much on the other side of the aisle for me, and guess what?
Anytime. We talk any semblance of politics, it's always instigated by me. I time [00:21:00] box it and I-G-T-F-O. I get that. I get the forgetfulness out. No, I get out. I get out of it as quickly as I can because I don't want either one of us to start throwing down my way or the highway or emotional. I don't want the emotional sinks to get too high.
Mm-hmm. Basically. So I keep that in check.
But it's, it's very much a conscious decision.
The thing though, is. And where all it all gets a little twisted is in a kind of a baby steps kind of way, I like pushing against cognitive dissonance by playing ethical dilemma.
We all know killing is wrong.
FAWN: Mm-hmm.
MATT: If you had the chance, would you kill Hitler? Ooh. Well now all of a sudden maybe we're, we're, we're starting to waffle on that belief and then, or you know, would you drive and hit a busload full of nuns to save a million people? All of a sudden you can split the hairs and you can get some people to do some pretty terrible things that are against their core beliefs if you can stack the deck [00:22:00] high enough.
But that's me. And you know, that's kind of the messed up stuff I think I like to kind of look at
because it, that's how I get to a place of truth.
FAWN: Okay, so now I'm confused.
MATT: Okay.
FAWN: by the way, you always bring that stuff up and it's so uncomfortable. Exactly. But the point is, it's supposed to
MATT: be,
FAWN: I, I never wanna be in that position.
MATT: Right? Of course not. You know, and if you ask somebody, would you rather have this or this?
They always say both, but that's not an answer. That's not the answer. My
FAWN: answer is always neither one. 'cause the kids like to play that game. Would you like to die in a fire or would you like to die from ice? Or you know, they come up with these like terrible things. I'm like. Is there another choice? I, I choose neither one.
Right. Thank you. And then they're like, no, mom, you can't do that. I'm like, yes, I can. I choose neither one.
MATT: Right. So you're pushing actively against,
FAWN: so
MATT: those challenges,
FAWN: okay, so I'm confused because it says here [00:23:00] how to reduce cognitive dissonance.
MATT: Mm-hmm.
FAWN: I'm like, okay. But then I read it and I'm like, really?
What if you, what if you can't, like my friend refuses to change her belief that. She thinks her belief, it's her belief is I, I think this way about abortion, and I do not,
MATT: it is not your place to change anyone's beliefs other than your own.
FAWN: But it ruined the friendship. It does. I was trying to, it does. I was trying to explain to her, look, I don't think you're hearing me.
Mm-hmm. But nothing was getting through anyway. But here's to how to reduce cognitive dissonance. Change your belief. Okay. What, this is the simplest option, but it is also more difficult to pull off when the belief is important to you or, or, uh, it's resistant to change. I don't understand .
It just feels like
MATT: a, a year one psychology psychiatrist. I'm not even gonna [00:24:00] read the rest of it.
FAWN: Because it says change reactions change how you perceive your actions. No, no thank you. Okay, so what happens, let's just keep reading. It says, what happens if you ignore cognitive dissonance? Even if you try to ignore the internal discomfort or of cognitive dissonance, it can still surface as physical tension and stress.
No really. Nevermind. I think I'm done reading. So let's just continue our reading conversation. No more reading. Ugh, laptop closed.
MATT: Yay.
FAWN: Here's the thing. The reason why I chose this topic for today, was because that term kept coming up for me the past week and a half. Cognitive dissonance.
All of a sudden I saw a podcast and they were talking about it. They had this expert Wait, you
MATT: mean emotional contagion? Yes. Or do you mean cognitive dissonance? I'm
FAWN: sorry. Emotional contagion. Sorry. Sorry. I'm [00:25:00] stuck on that. Being brainwashed. So I was watching, um, looking at a podcast. .
Um, it was really scary because this expert scientist was talking. Mm-hmm. Saying that what we're experiencing now is mass manipulation, mass, um, brainwashing. In tune with like a Patty Hearst situation, like a total
government regime from the past, from other countries, kind of situation. POW, kind of brainwashing. It's exactly the same tactics that are happening through social media for us now. It's quite scary, but, and it's also especially scary because I've been noticing it with children, with our kids, how they've been brainwashed.
Even though we homeschool, even though we're on top of everything and we communicate all the time, we eat all our meals together. You know, we're together. We respect one another. [00:26:00] There's still. Something has taken over and has taken over me too. Like, you know, and then you said it hasn't touched you. I'm like, it hasn't
MATT: touched me.
Nope. No way on. That's not
FAWN: true. What? Yes it has. So I brought up like, it's interesting, Matt, that the last six months. Your vocabulary has changed and you My vocabulary changes all the time. Stoic. That, stoic, stoic, stoic. No, but your whole, you even said, my identity now is I am a stoic and you never said stuff like that before.
It's good to put a
MATT: label to it. Thank you.
FAWN: I thought
MATT: we were
FAWN: not into labels.
MATT: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, then I'm, I'm a nothing then.
FAWN: Stop it. But anyway, so you don't wanna admit it, right? It did get you, it's insidious. You think, oh, well, I'm not on social media, or I don't do that, so I am free from that. But no, it's, it's, it's the food you eat, it's the, even if you don't look at the news, you're still getting news from somewhere.
You're getting it from friends, you're talking to, it's in the fashion, [00:27:00] it's in, it's in everyday life. We're all interconnected and we're
MATT: all constantly being influenced by external stimulus. Yes. Yeah. Welcome to life.
FAWN: I know, but it just seems like it's extreme at the moment.
It is. Well, it's extreme. 'cause everything is so heightened.
MATT: It's extreme because it's turned into dispersonal like we're just, at this point in time, I, I remember reading this, William Gibson wrote it, but we go gunning for animal tranquilizers filled with, oh God, ecstasy basically is what we're doing right now.
We're, everybody's like searching for the next dopamine hit and we can get a dopamine hit because I am angry. Or we can get a dopamine hit because oh my goodness, polar bears falling over and that's what we're gunning for and we need more and more of it. We're addicted to it.
FAWN: Well, one of the things that
was a reminder when I was [00:28:00] looking at this podcast. I heard this 15 years ago, Matt, and it's, it terrified me when I first heard it, but I was specifically told, be careful because your energy will be harvested. Mm-hmm. To be used for nefarious purposes. Yes. And especially when you look at, uh, mass consciousness.
So if you can, if you can get a whole bunch of people to get a negative emotion, that's the, that's the thing that really builds it, is the negative force, the fighting, the trolling, the mm-hmm the fighting basically. That fuels this insidious power that will control the society.
MATT: It can for sure. It it's very easily and negativity is very powerful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It very, very easily. Yeah. Because
FAWN: when you see anything that is incredibly harsh to look at, or heartbreaking or [00:29:00] maddening, mm-hmm. Right. It's. It's
MATT: impossible to look away.
FAWN: It's impossible to look away, but that kind of emotion that comes out of a sentient being can be harvested.
Mm-hmm. To control, to make you behave a certain way. I'm not explaining it right because I'm not an expert, but it's something I was told at least 15 years ago. Right. And I just, when I was listening to this podcast, it reminded me of that. And I think they did say harvesting. Energy, like that, emotional energy.
And I think they were talking about also that Facebook did this, like without telling people,
MATT: well, they, they did some investigation to figure out if emotional contagion could happen across social media bounds because it primarily had been studied face to face. I see your face, you're smiling, makes me feel better about everything.
And so I buy more or I feel better, or, or, or, or, or. And if you're really bad [00:30:00] and I can see that, then it's affecting me to, it's affecting me then negatively. And, and the study was,
FAWN: I
MATT: have to see you in order to make that happen? And it turns out I don't. I just need to be exposed to more negative
FAWN: and, and the people didn't know that they were part of this study.
MATT: Well, you signed the terms of agreement. Doesn't agree Repost, which nobody reads
FAWN: what. Okay, so what's the fix? It's interesting 'cause I wanted to do a whole episode on how stupid I am.
MATT: Oh, no,
FAWN: I, I'm sorry to say I am. No, I feel stupid. I, the last few weeks or months, actually, I've even wanted to stop the podcasting because I, I'm just like, I just feel so, such an, like an idiot.
Wait, and you said, oh, that just means that everything that you've studied up to this point, you're now ready for the next level. Yes. Like you've hit a plateau, right? I'm like, yeah, you're right. But I still, that's being very kind and generous. I feel [00:31:00] ignorance, so now I'm just like, I just wanna study as much as possible.
Not on the computer. Mm-hmm. Like I have to go back to reading physical books. If I go on the internet to read anything, there's a, an ad that pops up or an email that comes through, or I can't, I get, um,
MATT: sidetracked
FAWN: completely. Mm-hmm. Like the other night I was listening to this business person talk about how
80% of your focus should go on the three things that you need to accomplish that day, and then the 20% should be like something that's totally different to take your mind off of it, but you need to put all of your effort onto that. And then it brought back the whole idea of, um, the war on art because then some force will come in to distract you.
So 1130 I was doing this, I was listening to this guy talk about business and what to do, and I'm like, alright, I have my notebook. I was [00:32:00] taking notes. Mm-hmm. I was strategizing on my work. There's a text 1130 from a friend. I never, there's no way she's gonna text me at 1130. So I thought something's wrong.
I got so distracted. So si, what's the word? Si sidetracked. Si side sidetracked. There's another word I was looking for. Like it really took me and I was up until three in the morning, stewing over the information that I received. I'm like, wow, look at that. And I thought, oh, it's just a one time thing. The next day it ha no.
A few days later, again, same situation, different time. It happened again. I'm like, wow, that's crazy. But anyway, I just wanna go back and study and become a smart person. Is that even possible? Because I am looking at universities even and they're so biased. I don't trust doctors. I don't trust the medical fields anymore.
I [00:33:00] don't trust universities. How do I learn, Matt? I don't know what to do. I feel, and that's why I've been really down in the dumps lately. I'm like, what? I just don't know.
MATT: Man. Way to lay it all down on my feet. Huh? No. Whew. I gotta fix this.
FAWN: No, I'm not. I gotta
MATT: fix this folks right quick.
FAWN: Stop it. I'm not asking you to fix it. God no. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
MATT: You're No, you're absolutely right. I mean, a lot of people have,
FAWN: but it's good to feel stupid as long as you realize you're feeling stupid, because isn't it the ones who don't?
Think that they're stupid. They're stupid.
MATT: (Japanese) Musashi says, and this is all theoretical of course, and a million other things, but he says, if a man not yet 30 thinks he knows anything, it's a sure sign that his growth has stopped. [00:34:00] And a g Yoshikawa wrote this when he was like 30. I think he would've written it differently if he was 40 or 50 or 60, or 70, or 80, or 90 or 100.
FAWN: Right.
MATT: You know,
FAWN: there's always so much to learn. Don't get stagnant,
MATT: and there's always an opportunity to grow
FAWN: anyway. Well, do we have a fix for the whole brainwashing thing?
MATT: First of all, realize it's happening constantly and continuously.
FAWN: Not just to the other person, but to you also. Right, Matt?
MATT: Yes.
Except for for me. Stop it. And also something we need to realize, especially if you find yourself spiraling negatively, that there was a study in 2018 that found that students who limited their use of Facebook, Instagram, and or Snapchat to 30 minutes per day for three weeks experienced significant reductions in loneliness and depressive symptoms.
FAWN: Alright, that's a good fix right there. Really get off of [00:35:00] it.
MATT: And there's a reason why it's called doom scrolling. As soon as you notice you're doom scrolling, walk away.
FAWN: It's hard to walk away, Matt. It's seriously so
MATT: hard. And then I'll say, for me personally, my strategy always, it's the most amazing thing I will,
first thing in the morning, it's pitch black outside. I just took care of some chores around the house. I sit at my computer and lately I've been doing coding exercises. First thing, I don't feel like doing coding exercises. Oh my God, what's it gonna be today? Ah, so, and then I put on a song, boom. And the music I listened to, you wouldn't think it.
It's very happy, or it's at least very stirring. It conveys power and emotion and I used to listen to one particular album, oh, so good. But you can't listen the same album all the time and lessens its impact. But as [00:36:00] soon as I heard the opening riff, I knew it was time to start coding exercises.
And so my brain just shifts automagically. I go to the coding exercise website, nowhere else on the interweb. I'm not distracted. That's all I'm doing and I take a look. So I stay hyper-focused, but music, music works really well for me. Music that I control. This is not Spotify on random. This is not, this is, I, this is the album I wanna listen to right now.
This is what I'm listening
FAWN: to. Yeah. And we have lost that. Who has albums anymore that they take out? Control. You can set up,
MATT: you can set up your Spotify workout playlist. You can, and that's the other thing too. You can also work out, you know, anything to give you a dopamine hit where you're, you, you where you're in complete control of it.
FAWN: I wanna share something. What I've done lately. I go out at night. On the balcony, dun dun dun and look up at the stars. And it's amazing. And there's a, [00:37:00] you just, I can even hear the birds, talking in their sleep. It's the wildest thing. I'm like, oh my God, how cute. Because there's this one bird that I've become friends with.
I call this bird Eric, because when it shows up in a high pitched voice, it it, I swear it's like Eric. Eric. And so I'm like, Eric, you're here. And so it's, it's become my friend and it's not afraid of me anymore. So it's like it totally comes close to me. And the other day I walked out, I'm like, Eric, and I could hear way, way far away in the neighborhood.
He called back because I know his particular pitch. Mm-hmm. He said Eric back. I'm like, oh my God. And then he showed up like a minute later. But that, that takes me away from all of the garbage, all of the propaganda. Unless the bird is trying to tell me something, and [00:38:00] that's why, which it is not, you know, that's why
MATT: I'll jam on my bike first thing in the morning.
Yeah. Or I'll just spin right there, you know, I'll spin right there. I'm looking at my, I'm looking at the bike right now. Spin as a matter of fact. Um, but yeah, there's, there's a wide variety nature of things you can do to, to, to get out of your own way. Particularly because I think for you and I, we're in our heads too much.
So getting out of your head a little bit is a good thing.
FAWN: And um, I even had this little enemy in the yard. This chipmunk was my enemy. Every day we were at odds with one another. It was a cartoon, like we were at war with one another. And then all of a sudden I'm like, you know what? I give up. It is so smart, this thing.
And then I gave up and then I started to, give it peanuts now we have a friendship going, like, I left a peanut and it started screaming at me when I was at my desk. 'Cause it was just standing there with a peanut. Mm-hmm. I think it was saying thank you.
The whole relationship changed, mm-hmm. That helped get me away [00:39:00] from all this mess. This control that we're getting. Mm-hmm. From all these devices. There's so much out there. And then we can graduate to each other and become friends.
Little baby steps. Could be with a squirrel, with the birds, right. With the blades of grass. And that's it. Is there anything else you wanna have?
MATT: Oh my goodness. I have a number of things, but maybe they should just be in appendix.
No, please go.
FAWN: Please go.
MATT: Yeah, but they're, they're completely, no, I mean, don't go,
FAWN: please. They're, they're completely disjointed. Do it. Do so. Bear that in mind. Do the disjointedness. I love it.
MATT: Okay, so for starters, if we look at the emotional side of emotional contagion, emotions are actually comprised of two things.
Level of pleasure, positive or negative pleasure, by the way, and. The level of arousal, which means how intense it is.
FAWN: Mm-hmm.
MATT: Which is fun. So that's what an emotion is, it's feelings with the charge on them, which is fun. So if you think about it, if you're feeling [00:40:00] negatively, if you can lower the charge on it, you won't necessarily affect others as much.
Yeah. People with. Depression failed to differentiate between positive or non-emotional content, which I think is interesting.
FAWN: What does that mean?
MATT: It means when you're depressed, you can't see good.
FAWN: Oh yeah.
MATT: Well, yeah, but it's, it's, it's like, yeah, "Well to free cognitive dissonance you just have to..." but when you're caught in, you know, when you're caught in the web, it's hard to see.
FAWN: Definitely.
MATT: It's really hard to see. And so you need a massively positive thing.
FAWN: Or positive say, or you need to get out of your snap out of it. You need to get out of your own way. Go. Let's go dancing. But
MATT: the other thing is, is anytime you are in that positive frame of mind,
in the words of suicidal tendencies, don't let 'em bring you down. Okay? Carry your happiness with you. Carry it bold and proud. [00:41:00] At work, we have meetings. The big boss shows up and everybody gets, I have a dorky background. I turn on my video camera with a dorky background, or I show my picture, which is a drawing.
Everybody else has these professional shots. Fun. I jibber jabber. I, I message people during meetings when I notice stuff or when I just think something's funny. I try and take my positivity when I have it. I try and carry it through the meeting, and I try as hard as I can, not to let the, even the overarching feeling in the room bring me down.
So yes, that's a big one.
I'll close it by saying, you know, going outside into nature and looking up at the stars. Very stoic thing to do. Oh.
By the way, I was outside and I, I, I saw these weird lights in the bushes. But anyways, I digress. I digress all over the place. Everybody, I forced him to wake up. Have a good one
FAWN: to go. Look at the dark [00:42:00] outside.
MATT: Have a good one.
FAWN: Talk to you in a few days if you need us. Email. Um, thank you for listening. Be well Talk to you soon.
Have a beautiful every day.
