Stop Trying to Make Friends. Go Play

FAWN: [00:00:00] This is Fawn and Matt. Come on, come outside and play with us for a little bit. Sometimes the simplest things we forget how to do, or we think we've forgotten, but we're actually maybe doing them and feeling much better. Sometimes we're so busy and wrapped up in so many different emotions and all the other things take over and we don't notice, "Hey, I just had a good time." So we're gonna play a little bit, and then we're gonna learn to play a lot, and we're gonna make life much, much better Here we go Welcome back to our friendly world, everybody. MATT: Hey, hey. Let's play. FAWN: Matt is king of play. MATT: I'm king. No, FAWN: you need to stop there. It's one of the things... Okay, I'll stop there. You're king. Mic drop. Bye. Okay, have a nice day, everybody. Tune in, no, for next week. [00:01:00] I don't know what I'm saying. All right. It's been tough. It's been, it's been a hard ride, and I've been noticing so many things are topsy-turvy, and I have wanted to just not even speak, which is why the podcast has been in the state it has been the past few weeks. But we're reminded of something really, really important, right, Matt? And I was gonna say in the beginning, Matt is king of this. When, when I first met Matt, this is one of the things that he taught me, was the art of play. So I'm gonna turn it over to Matt. MATT: So whatever happened, whatever happened to play? I mean, when you're a kid, elementary school, you're out on the blacktop, you're playing four square or you're playing handball or you're playing tag or you're on the monkey bars or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? FAWN: Mm-hmm. MATT: So what happens? What happens as we go forward? Why is it that [00:02:00] we're not playing four square or basketball or- FAWN: And it stopped after sixth grade, right? It's right when the hormones start kicking in. Like seventh grade on, to me, there was no more like recess the way we experienced it in elementary school. Like we never... Did you have... Uh, we didn't... Once, once I got into junior high, I wanna say things got very serious real quick, and there was no time to play, and there was no, um, nothing to play with really, because recess and lunch was just meant for a quick eat something and get back to it. MATT: Right. Right, because we had PE class. We had physical education class. FAWN: Which was not fun for me. MATT: I don't think it's fun for most, to be honest. So what happened? You know, there's a part of me that wants to say that as we get older, then [00:03:00] doing the things we did as children is seen as childish, and so we have to reframe them, and we have to reframe them by playing golf or having a poker night with the guys or, um, going bowling or going dancing or... But all these things are play. All these things are play. FAWN: And, uh, and I wanna say, yeah, those are play, but I'm just looking at, , mostly the people that I've noticed, their idea of play is commerce. Like they'll go shopping, like retail therapy they call it, right? MATT: Is that play though? FAWN: No, it's not, but I'm saying, I, w- I'm just no- as you're describing all these like poker nights and golfing and all of that, it seems to me men tend to do these things and I, I, I dare say that women don't do that as much because maybe there's more of, um- [00:04:00] N- uh, I was gonna say more of a sense of responsibility. But, like, when you're taking care of kids and you have so many different things happening, I think play either becomes retail therapy or going for a drink, which is not play either. It's escapism. MATT: But you also play with your children. FAWN: Yeah, but that's not necessarily, like- MATT: That counts ... FAWN: fun. MATT: It can be. I always had fun playing with the kids. FAWN: As a mom, when I played with the kids, no, it was not that fun for me. MATT: No. FAWN: It wasn't because I was, uh, always, like, in charge of cleanup. Like, when you played with the kids, like, I made dinner and I, I cleaned up and I don't know. I, I just felt like I, I, I was feeling too heavy to play. MATT: You made it sound like, you made it sound like I didn't pick up after myself when FAWN: we were done playing. No, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. [00:05:00] But, um, I don't know. Just, uh, I think from my perspective, I'm trying to figure out why I, I couldn't play or I didn't feel so light about it even when I played with the kids. Mm-hmm. I always felt a sense of responsibility for something as we were playing. So, um, yeah, no. MATT: Yeah, there's a certain element, I think, of detachment that I'm, I'm able to a- achieve even if everything is completely kind of FUBAR'd. FAWN: Mm-hmm. MATT: Um, I can detach. And I've always been that way because my chief way, my play language Is joking around. And joking around is play. It's wordplay, it's throwing down puns, it's telling jokes, it's teasing. These are all other ways of playing, and that's kind of my primary source of social play at this point. I do a lot of other playing. I play video games. I, which by the way, for those of you interested, some tw- [00:06:00] uh, in, yeah, like 14, 15 years ago they did a study and they found out that 29% of people over the age of 50 play video games. It's probably bigger now. But, and that just kind of shows, to me at least, the, the need everybody has to play and, and maybe not having the mechanisms or the understanding that A, they need to do it, and B, how to do it is kind of key. FAWN: But people in their 50s, that's when Pac-Man came in and, you know, all those video games came about. People in their 50s, we're talking about the 1980s. MATT: Right, right, right. FAWN: So that, that makes sense to me that they would play video games. It's not like we're saying, "Oh, you know, the, uh, people who are in their 90s play video games." Well, they didn't really do that for fun when they were kids. MATT: Right. But FAWN: they- But people in their 50s, that's when all those video games came about. MATT: But my dad was all into model railroading. Um, [00:07:00] my, some of my dad's friends bowled in a league. FAWN: Yeah, but those are not video games. MATT: Yes. Those aren't video games- I was- ... but those are still instances of people playing. FAWN: Got it. MATT: So, so yes. FAWN: No, I, I thought you were just talking about a certain percentage play video games- MATT: Well, yeah 29%- ... in their 50s ... of people over 50. It just goes to show that there is a certain hunger everybody has for play. FAWN: Yeah. MATT: And that's kind of a play that you can do and you don't have to reveal yourself to the world. You can still disguise. FAWN: But Okay, I don't wanna put a damper on it, but The more money you have, it feels like as you get older, the more able you are to play MATT: If you think of play as needing equipment, yes. FAWN: Or even the leisure time. MATT: Ah, yes, the leisure time. But I... Okay, in my head I wanna believe that we all have at least some leisure time. FAWN: I think we do, but then I want you to appeal to someone like me who just feels heavy in the spirit. You know [00:08:00] what I'm saying? You mean- I'm MATT: not- You mean the one who was playing last weekend for hours? FAWN: Okay, so Matt pointed out how I was actually playing. I'm like, "Yeah, okay, yeah, that did feel good, and I do play." And that's, that's how we started the show today is we don't even realize it, you know. Like, I think it has to be this grand, extravagant beginning, middle, and an end. And like, "Oh, we're gonna play now." Like, "Let's get the bouncy ball and go somewhere and play with the ball." MATT: Right. FAWN: You know, I feel like the, there has to be a, a, a ramp-up to a production that needs to happen to play, and it, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be that way. It can just happen easily and without much, uh, production- Right often. MATT: So yeah, so, so let's- But I'm FAWN: sorry, what, what did I do last week? What are you talking about? MATT: Sun paper. FAWN: Oh, I was teaching a class, so I taught- You MATT: were going to teach a class. FAWN: Right. I was going to teach a class, so I was obsessed with getting [00:09:00] samples together to teach the kids to, to show them different ways you can make... You can paint with light. Yeah. I didn't realize that was play 'cause that, for me, that's work. MATT: And let's... But you had fun doing it, right? FAWN: Yeah, definitely. MATT: So it's, it's a weird space 'cause computer programming is hyper serious. I play at it. FAWN: Mm-hmm. MATT: At times. There are times to be serious and times to play. So yes. FAWN: So cooking could be a part of that. Like for me, it's cooking because I don't like to follow recipes and I'm like, I feel wild when someone's like, "Oh my goodness, you need a measuring cup, and here, we need to measure." You know? And I'm like, "No, let me just throw this handful and see things happen." MATT: Well, well, yes, and that is a type of play. I would describe it as, um, perhaps, perhaps performance play, which is, which are things like line dancing or, um, masquerading or, you know, we could talk cooking, we could [00:10:00] talk painting, we could talk, you know, the, the, all the, those kinds of creative, artistic kind of spaces too. FAWN: So what you're doing is you're defining it. So can you define it again in a very simple way for me to understand? Could you define play, please? MATT: So there's different categories. There's a spectrum, and so one category is competitive play, where you're playing tag or you're playing a card game. Then there's... And perhaps, again, welcome to the spectrum because God knows maybe we're talking creative play, which are things like, uh, making things. Now we're talking about not necessarily, not for your profession, we're just talking in general. So, you know, you can paint for fun. That is play. That can be play. Um- You know, doing things like building model airplanes or, um, you know... And, and the social aspect comes in, like my dad loved playing with model trains, and then he joined a model [00:11:00] tra- a model railroad club and the whole bit, and it became social. Then there's physical play. So I would argue when I go cycling, I'm, yes, okay, fine, I'm going for fitness, I guess. But I would categorize spinning in the morning for a half an hour on the bike, that's for, that's strictly exercise. I cycle, I'll go for hours and, 'cause I wanna explore, 'cause I wanna breathe fresh air, 'cause I like being out early in the morning, and, you know, that's fun. So there's physical, there's physical play, so that's bicycles. That could be ATVs. That could be, you know, riding motorcycles or snowmobiles. Um, there's, and then there's social play, which is probably my-- or, uh, verbal play, which is my primary social play, which is joking around with people. Jokes and puns and teasing. It can be trivia. Um, and then last but not least, there was the performance, which is kind of where I started, which was talking about dancing and things. So tho- that's the [00:12:00] spectrum. To me, that's the spectrum. And, and these are things that y- you can split the hair. Is it a hobby? Is it play? Is it for your work? Is it... It's, these are things you enjoy, and if, when you add the social component to them, then they typically get even better. FAWN: Thanks, honey MATT: So we need to kind of take back our permission to go ahead and do it. We have to be okay with people looking at us cross-eyed. Now, I live in a space where I'm okay with people looking at me cross-eyed. We were just- I don't need permission ... FAWN: talking about this upstairs. W- talking about, you were saying, "Isn't it weird that we feel like we need to ask for permission?" How do you think that came about? Where, where does that come from? MATT: I, it may come from PE where you, you where you're told, "Well, this is what you're playing today." FAWN: I think also there's a certain amount of guilt that if you're not working, that what are you doing? You're screwing around, you're wasting time.[00:13:00] It's a big no-no in our culture. MATT: Which is, which is bizarre when you start to think about what play really gives us. Um, and, you know, feel free, by all means, argue, but, uh, honestly, um, playing makes you more resilient. So, hey, guess what, you people who wanna be more resilient. Um, it, it can reduce stress, it'll boost your creativity depending on, of course, where you are in the spectrum of play. Uh, it'll boost your creativity, uh, it'll promote discovery, makes you form new kind of, you know, pathways in your brain, which doesn't hurt anybody, which makes you smarter. FAWN: It gives you more energy, that's for sure. MATT: It can give you more energy, a-and it can physically strengthen you too, depending on, again, the activity. Yeah. Paintball, for example. FAWN: No, but like even, even if it's not strenuous, you, you, you feel uplifted and energetic, alive. And [00:14:00] I mean, I don't think that art can be created without play, and that's a problem because a long time ago someone told me, "Be careful in society. When you see society not creating art, that's a big sign of depression, like societally." Uh, is that a word? MATT: Yes. FAWN: So the more heads down we are, the more incl- you know, inclusive, the more we're, we're so serious about everything, the, the worse our society is becoming because there's no play. MATT: Right. Right. And now let's kinda start winging this back to what this whole podcast is about, which is friendship. And I want, just wanna take a moment and I wanna, I wanna challenge people. Don't try and make friends. Go try and find something to play. Go find some play. Go find a play group. Go find a board game [00:15:00] group. Go find a, a square dancing troupe. FAWN: You know what I was just thinking? MATT: Go play paintball. FAWN: What if we got one of those bouncy balls, like remember handball? MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: Or any ball. Red MATT: rubber ball. FAWN: What if we just go to a store and get one of those balls for cheap and just walk down the neighborhood bouncing the ball? Because wasn't that the call in the neighborhood when you were a kid? It was for me. Like, you hear a bouncing ball and it's like all the kids come running out. MATT: Right. FAWN: I wonder what would happen if we just walked down the street bouncing the ball. MATT: It is an interesting question. FAWN: And see what happens. MATT: It is an interesting question. So go. Go do. Go find. And, and it can be as simple as going to a bars trivia night or, um, taking up kayaking or, you know, I met people cycling for goodness sake. You know, and l- and, [00:16:00] you know, the... Before s- you say it's too hard, you're playing for goodness sake or you're trying to play and you're trying to hang around people who wanna play too. And so what does that mean? You know, um, all of a sudden, you know, these are people also who wanna kinda drop the pretense, who don't wanna necessarily talk about, you know, their job and how stressed out and everything else they are, and, you know, you can, you can have an experience. And, and the kind of experience you can have is, you know, maybe it seems superficial, but superficial conversations can sometimes be very, very important. Um, you know, you're basically, um, you know, you're giving yourself the permission to be silly, to let down your hair, to, um, be- FAWN: Not take things so seriously MATT: to be vulnerable but in a very kind of wi- wimpy way, you know? 'Cause, oh, oh dear, like if, if you're playing [00:17:00] pickleball, let's say. If you're playing pickleball and you suck, well, yeah, you're kinda making yourself vulnerable as far as something, you know, somebody can laugh at you, but they're laughing at you 'cause you're terrible at something that who cares about. FAWN: But people get mad, honey. MATT: Well, and that's just FAWN: it. Like when you're playing- Don't take it MATT: seriously. FAWN: No, no. I mean, you may not take it seriously, but the people you're playing against- MATT: Mm-hmm ... FAWN: like they get mad. I remember going bowling with someone, and I was so bad. And instead of just laughing, going, "Ha ha," which I was trying to do- MATT: Right FAWN: they were like pissed off because I wasn't bowling a good game- ... and they were wasting their time. Oh. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Well, but that's just it. Play is meant to be Low stakes, not serious Just don't, don't play with FAWN: those kinds of people. MATT: Exactly. Exactly. And then, you know, you can discover... I mean, join a, join a role-playing group, a role-playing game group. That's what I did when I was younger. Um, you know, what, what-- The things you're gonna get out of it are, [00:18:00] are, are immeasurable and, you know, it starts to feel and sound, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it starts to feel like, you know, building friendships because you're going to have something easy to talk about. You're gonna have shared goals. You're, you're gonna see the same people theoretically over and over again if you join a group. FAWN: You know, you know what I think would be really good? MATT: And you're gonna share memories. FAWN: Like, I think a really good idea is to join an improv class because you're there with strangers, you're forced to interact, and you're forced to be creative with your back and forth with, uh, with the way you have di- uh, dialogue, right? MATT: Right. FAWN: And you're supposed to be so off the cuff and so, uh, uninhibited- MATT: Mm-hmm ... FAWN: that, I mean, that would be... I think that's a great way- MATT: That is a great FAWN: way ... to do play and also to stretch yourself a little bit. And guaranteed, usually in those types of [00:19:00] classes, you all end up going out for coffee or something afterwards. MATT: And there we have it, folks. FAWN: That, that is- I mean, that's how we met ... MATT: that is a wonderful idea. FAWN: But in Aikido. MATT: Right. That is a wonderful idea. Absolutely. So yes. So go play FAWN: I want a ball. MATT: That's it. Go play. FAWN: I want a ball and an ice cream cone. Ah. Okay. All right. Is that it? MATT: Yes. All right. I, I think, I think it was important for us after our hiatus to come back with something- Yeah ... just like this. FAWN: Let's go get a ball. MATT: Just nice FAWN: and simple. They have them... They still have them at the grocery stores, don't they? MATT: We have balls all over the house. FAWN: That's true. MATT: Let's go get one. FAWN: I don't wanna take my nice yoga balls out there. MATT: We'll have to. FAWN: But that would be hysterical 'cause those things are huge, and they make a big noise. [00:20:00] Let's do it. Okay. All right. Well, well, tune in, folks. We'll tell you what happened. Uh. Probably nothing. All right. I don't know. Something, something's gonna happen good. MATT: Be well, everybody. FAWN: All right, talk to you in a few days. Take care. Have a lovely every day. MATT: Bye-bye.