“Man Keeping, Trauma Dumping, and the Hidden Cost of Emotional Labor”

FAWN: [00:00:00] Ooh. Had to turn on a fan, you guys. Hello. Welcome back to Our Friendly World. Can you hear the fan? Maybe? Sorry, but sweating over here. Hello? Hello, everybody. So what's up, Matt? MATT: Oh, I'm, I'm sorry. Ooh, I had a question. FAWN: Of me MATT: a question of you. FAWN: Uh oh. What do you Yeah, I know. What is it? I, I'm, MATT: I'm a little afraid that I'm an, I'm not gonna hear the answer I wanna hear. I know the answer I wanna hear, but, uh, I get the feeling you're gonna say no, but, so how often do you feel like you need to manage both my emotional and social needs, like how often am I needy and, and telling you, you know, FAWN: no, it's not that you're needy, but I feel it on the daily, most of the day, half the day, I would say. On the daily, you've been thinking MATT: about my FAWN: Absolutely. [00:01:00] That's why I get mad at you when you say you don't care about me or like you don't. I I'm not, I'm not on the forefront of, things that you care about. And that's why I get so infuriated because I spent a lot of my time thinking about your wellbeing Uhoh in every way. So, but I don't know if that answers your question. So, but, but to answer your question further, I don't find you needy, and it pisses me off even more sometimes I wonder. If you were needy, maybe that would be better, because if I by chance happen to sneak in some advice into what I'm saying to you, then you get really bent out of shape. I don't want you to fix it, woman. I'm just telling you how I feel. You're training me not to tell you how I feel. So then, you know, MATT: uh oh. Uh oh. Yes, that's my. Standard argument. Does that ring a yes? Does that FAWN: ring a bell? Did I screw up your whole [00:02:00] conversation right MATT: now? No. No, you didn't. Uh, so anyways, there were some researchers, there were some research face right now, oh, this is gonna be bad. Anyways, there was some researchers, psychologists, colleges, Stanford, and one of 'em coined a new word. It's called Man Keeping Folks. FAWN: It just. It's like MATT: housekeeping, but for men FAWN: it just, I think of manscaping. MATT: I know. So do I, but which is gross. Hold on. And they, they defined it as the unreciprocated work that women do to manage the emotional and social needs of men in their lives. FAWN: Yeah, I wanna say minimum half the day I think about it. MATT: Well, you think about it, but are you doing FAWN: I try. Most of the time I'm like, what can I do? What can I [00:03:00] do? What can I do? And when it's the worst case scenario, that's when I seriously go into prayer mode. I did it for you on Friday, remember? And you're talking to a colleague. You're like, this thing totally just turned around. And I'm like, and then I, I was like, pantomiming to you that I prayed for. You remember? Oh, MATT: well it he wasn't FAWN: acting like himself. No, I'm not. We're not here to talk about what it was exactly. I'm just saying. I came up with an example. Usually I can't come up with examples of what I do for you or like, you know what I'm saying? So MATT: apparently I fall into this evil trap and I now I feel terrible. FAWN: No, you're not, Matt. You're not needy. I am hyper wanting to help. Do you know what I'm saying? I love you so much, and same with our kids. All I do is try to make sure that I keep you guys safe, alright? In every way possible. Okay. MATT: And you're focusing on the emotional Now we flip it to the social, so literally, oh yeah. FAWN: I don't have to [00:04:00] worry about that. Because now you have a huge crew of men that you hang out with. But yeah, in all the places we've lived, I was, I've. Always, I mean, talk to Wendy, talk to my other friends. We're always like, Ooh, should we set up the guys together so they bond? That's always, that was always my thing. I would, I would start looking around and going, would that be a good friend for Matt? Is that Matt's best friend? Of course, MATT: but I already have my best friends and stuff. FAWN: I'm saying before in other, even MATT: before. FAWN: No, because we didn't live near them. We were very alone. Hence our podcast. Hence our whole, hence our whole friendship movement before the podcast. But what, right? What, MATT: what these scientists noted was that due to, you should have rehearsed this before, min especially have fewer friends and fewer networks and fewer everythings, and so they are leaning [00:05:00] on. Their romantic partner to satisfy these needs. FAWN: Didn't we talk about that a long time ago? Like, but now we MATT: have a word for it. FAWN: Yeah, but we talked about that way before these, whatever researchers mm-hmm. From universities did it? Yes. You know, I know, I know you, you all know how we feel about those researchers, but the universities, but they put MATT: science behind it. Oh my God. Like the science stuff? No, but FAWN: we talked about this, how when you and I were discussing all the different aspects of friendship and loneliness and what's happening within our culture mm-hmm. That people who are married, we think it's a mistake to call that person your best friend or to have that person be your best friend because you are in it together. You're each other's witnesses on everything, right? That you really do need a break. Like when, when our baby almost died, when I almost died at the hospital. When you almost died at the hospital. Sorry. But like all of that. You can't rely on each other to talk about things [00:06:00] that deeply have scarred you. MATT: Right. FAWN: You need someone else right to talk to you. You, you need, you need the tribe. You need, you need the circle. Right? Well, you need the teeth points. Need someone MATT: for sure. Someone who's not emotionally connected as you are, FAWN: right? Yeah. Yeah. It has to be more than. MATT: It's, it's like when you, when you, when you go to a friend for advice and they can actually give you advice, because oftentimes you get blinded by your own emotion to whatever it is. FAWN: Yeah. And if you're going through something together, even if there's two friends, you're going through it together. You don't have their perspective, you don't have the bird's eye view. MATT: Right, right. And it gets even worse because studies are showing that like two thirds of American males are saying that no one really knows them well. FAWN: Well, yeah, because when you talk to your buddy, let's talk, like for example, when you and Jim speak. Mm-hmm. And I've [00:07:00] talked about this many times when you get off the phone, I'm like, well, how is Samira? 'cause you know, big things were big happening with her and you're like, I don't know. We didn't talk about that. I'm like, what? MATT: Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. It's No, FAWN: no, no, no, no. I'm not. No, it's uppermost in our minds. No, no. I understand babe. But sometimes, like, I remember this was from years ago, something big had happened. But you guys didn't talk about that because guys don't talk about the big things. No. You end, yes, you do. You end up talking about the scores for football or some other thing, and somehow it's in the context, underneath everything, but you don't actually talk about the thing that's bothering you. Well, MATT: hold on. That's because maybe sometimes we don't wanna live in that space. That's why I, and we wanna break from that space. Why? And we want freedom. FAWN: Yes, I know. But that's why. Okay, let's MATT: full stop. FAWN: That's why. Kidding. That's why I'm saying you don't have the same kind of in-depth, [00:08:00] relationships with friends as women do because we totally like to discuss our emotions, and I know I'm putting everybody in a box. I don't wanna do that, but okay. For those of us who, when something happens, we talk about it, we try to figure out what it is. We're feeling. Mm-hmm. And we also release that feeling through talking about it. But I find that people like you don't talk about it. And so you are not discussing your emotions. You know, you don't, you don't do that. And I think that's why you just have a different way of friendship than, yes, MATT: very different and also the way I release, but that's, that's the one release things is different. FAWN: I'm just saying, MATT: you know, like, like, you don't even know why I, I had quite the little spout, quite the little fit this morning. FAWN: What happened? With who? MATT: No, with myself. Thank you very much. FAWN: All by yourself? MATT: Dealing with stuff. FAWN: What happened? MATT: Doesn't matter. That has nothing to do with the podcast. FAWN: I knew something was off with you, said fine and have [00:09:00] anything to do with the podcast. Here you go. I said, what's the matter with, how's it going? And I knew something was wrong, but MATT: everything's fine. Said because everything is fine. FAWN: Because when I try to help you get all bent outta shape, MATT: everything is fine. FAWN: Oh my God. Okay. We need to wrap this up 'cause I need to find out what happened. MATT: Half of men in the UK can't confide problems at all. And I wanna say that I have seen FAWN: it's because you come across as weak, you think MATT: I have seen the upshot of this being and I do it and people do it to me. All of a sudden you'll find yourself in a conversation with someone and they are telling you about something that you don't care about just because they need to get it out. Okay. And so really the, and so, you know, it's called what? Trauma dumping, but um, that's what our kid calls it. Well, that's what the world calls it. Oh, really? Yes. Trauma dumping. Trauma dumping, yes. Whole new vernacular coming folks. Actually a whole new vernacular. Hass been here for a [00:10:00] while in point of fact. FAWN: That's funny. I used to call it emotional vomiting. MATT: Yes, and that's a good word too, but they like to say dump, but, um, FAWN: I really can't stand that word. Like when they use dump in cooking, dump two cups of flour dump. That's disgusting. MATT: Dump cakes. Mm. Stop in a crockpot. Anyways, go FAWN: on, go on. MATT: And I'll notice myself doing it too. Sometimes I start talking about something and I can't, literally cannot stop. And here's the key. Here's the key. Here's the key. If you feel the need to do it, do it. If someone else is doing it to you, let 'em do it. Listen, hear what they have to say. FAWN: You don't have to contribute. All you have to do, look at them. You don't contribute MATT: one iota, just FAWN: them focus. You just MATT: have to make sure that you put them in a place where they don't feel silly. For doing it because we need to sometimes. FAWN: Yeah. Just it's called giving someone attention. MATT: Yes. [00:11:00] So at the end of the day, if you find yourself in a position where it seems like the person you're, oh, I'm sorry. It gets worse. It gets worse. It gets worse. It man keeping, they're now blaming. FAWN: On women, MATT: I think. No, no, no. It's, I think it's, there's a number of factors to it. I think it's bigger than this, but supposedly like 60% of all men who are eligible, who are single, not in a relationship, are online dating. Okay, fine. It's way to, we meet women and the rest of it, 60% on the female side, it's like 38% and there's a lot of women saying it's 'cause they don't wanna deal with the drama. They don't wanna deal with the man trauma dumping on them really. And having to support the man, keep the man propped up. Make sure the man is okay. 'cause we're supposed to be the, the, the bad stoic. We're supposed to be these emotionless. I can take anything. But then when a [00:12:00] woman gets close to us, then all of a sudden we trauma dump all over. Yeah. But. I mean, if you're starting to date, you don't wanna emotionally vomit everything. Exactly. Why don't you wait? Well, no, and that's just it. They, they're, they're finding out men do wait, but then they still do it. Okay. And, and you know, the, the keys there are number one for the love of God. Trauma dump on your friends? FAWN: Honestly, man. Not your significant other, I don't think. I think we're at a point, and I said this years ago when we started. Mm-hmm. We're at a point where no one has the capacity to hold the vomit. MATT: Right. FAWN: You know, I used to, I remember like when I was in my early twenties mm-hmm. My friend got sick, she drank too much, and I was trying to get her on the bus. She couldn't make it. She runs into this other pub. We were in England, and she went to, she was in the lobby of this place, of this building, and she just threw up everywhere on carpet, [00:13:00] and I had to scoop it up with my hands and clean it up, but I have the capacity, you know what I'm saying? Right. I was energetic. I didn't have, you know, other kids to take care of, you know what I'm saying? Like, I did it right. I just did it MATT: Right. FAWN: But like nowadays, I, I mean. I'd be like, I don't know. I would handle it differently. Like I, even if I did clean it up, I don't have the capacity to hold anyone's, um, metaphorical hair, hair or vomit. Right. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. I don't think you should just say, you should say blanket, like women can do it with each other, or you can do it with friends. I think we're at a point where it's not just with men. I don't think anyone can handle their own personal stuff, let alone someone else's. And that's why we have this podcast because where, every week we're trying to talk about something. Mm-hmm that's worth talking about, worth looking at, worth [00:14:00] doing to help us to have better capacity, more capacity to be able to hold one another. Maybe you guys are just now waking up to this man keeping. Maybe you're realizing that you have this need, and I think that's a great step. Mm-hmm. Is you have this need to have someone hear you and I think once we realize how much of a need exists that a psychologist alone is, could be kind of like a vapid situation sometimes where you need, this is why we need community, right? Where we can hear each other, maybe this one person can't handle it, but this other person in the community can, do, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Like we, there's always, there's more than two people. So, if it's this person that really needs to, express themselves, maybe talking to a group of people where collectively everyone has maybe 10% energy, right? But amongst 10 people, you have a hundred percent energy, right? [00:15:00] That this person can still be held. And I, that's what we need. We need a group of us, we need a little neighborhood. I'm starting to not even use the word Village anymore. When we started years ago, I said, tribe, but I feel like I shouldn't use tribe anymore. And then community. And now I'm like, ugh, community. Like there are certain, there's certain words that are, have now been, um, the meaning of it means something else. So I'm having trouble. Speaking. Mm-hmm. Because I'm like, how do I say, a group of us that hold each other. Whatever it is, community, whatever it is, family. It doesn't have to be a family that you were born into. I'll just start saying family. Creating a family where there are a few people who can hold. So if you're not as strong, you are stronger together. Right? But these people at Stanford or wherever they're from, it's, this is nothing [00:16:00] new. I can't believe people get paid for this. Well, MATT: yes, but the key is the measurements that they did. And they're seeing eligible women who want to date dropping out because they don't wanna deal with men's drama 'cause they're FAWN: tired, MATT: because they're exhausted of, of having to quote unquote fix the man. FAWN: No, they're exhausted having to do whatever they had to do to become who they are and, the woman needs way more energy physically to bear a child, to take care of the child. Who snores while the baby's crying? Who's like, MATT: that would be you, fawn, FAWN: any little whimper. It's always the mom who has to get up and feed from their bodies, which is lovely. By the way, I totally miss breastfeeding. , I loved it. But it, it does take everything out of you. Women are tired, exhausted, MATT: right? FAWN: And so are men. I don't mean to knock down what you're saying and to [00:17:00] belittle what men are going through. You've all had to shut everything down for a long time and just shove it in and. be Stoic MATT: in the bad way. Y FAWN: he, yeah. It's not healthy, MATT: right? It isn't. But FAWN: I think that women have also become like men now where they're hiding their emotions and there MATT: you go. And, and that's what I wanna say is let go of the gender roles and if, you know, be a nurturer when it's appropriate to be a nurturer, as a man, as a woman, doesn't matter on some level. Be a nurturer. And so listen to someone when they wanna tell you all about the, and this is my earliest example when I met the bass player from Iron Maiden and he gave me an autograph and it was so cool. And I was like 16 and, and, and nobody cared. At least pretend to care and say, wow, that's really cool. Oh my [00:18:00] God, really FAWN: well. I remember hearing this story a few times and I always thought it was super charming how like, geeked out you would get over it. Mm-hmm. And how, how excited you were. Like, I didn't know this person. I didn't really like listen a whole lot to their music. Right. But what I found fascinating was your entire journey to like get that MATT: mm-hmm. FAWN: That recognition and how excited you were. I'm like, look at Matt, because Matt is like too cool for words sometimes. Just too cool, too tough looking too, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. But for you to be like, oh my God, I know it was ex, MATT: it was beyond exciting. I mean, of all the people I could have met, that was the one I most wanted to meet from that band. FAWN: Right? No, but I'm just saying like when you meet someone, they're telling you a story. Mm-hmm. You may not relate to what they're talking about, but relating to, look at this way, this person has reacted. Right. And you can MATT: relate to It's fascinating, the energy behind it. FAWN: Yeah, of course. Of course. You know, 'cause MATT: [00:19:00] everybody's been through exaltations and terrible things. And so we can, you know, as, as we say, pain is pain, but joy is also joy. FAWN: Yeah. Good way to put it, honey. Absolutely. Yeah. People think, oh well my pain isn't as bad as what you went through, so I don't wanna talk about it. No. Pain is pain. It hurts. It still hurts. Same with joy. You are absolutely right babe. I never thought about it like that. MATT: Right. And just 'cause I was extremely joyful about meeting the guy from Iron Maiden. And likewise, you were so excited to, you know, get a letter back from Henri's Wife. FAWN: Oh my god, I, yeah, and I get it. Favorite photographer Yeah. MATT: But anyways, back to man keeping, which was the subject. If you're in a relationship, don't what's the, what's the word for it? Don't do too much emotionally vomiting on your significant other, or trauma dumping or [00:20:00] the rest of it. Spread it out. And when somebody comes to you and they're in a place where they're in a similar spot where they, they need to quote unquote trauma dump. Let 'em, Just because they give it to you doesn't mean you have to keep it and walk with it. Right. But you can at least accept it and say, thank you. FAWN: What if we trauma dumped in other ways, like writing it on a piece of paper. Like writing it out and then burning it. MATT: Yes. But we're social animals and so we like to Well, I mean FAWN: to do that first shared, MATT: shared pain is always lessened. I FAWN: know, but like it lessens the crazy angst. It it can. Yes. So then you can, when you talk to someone, you don't give them any triggers or you don't give them any MATT: true, FAWN: like, you, you don't surround them with it, but you say, oh my God, this is this is what I'm going through. Right? It's not the first time you're talking about it. It's like, oh my God, this is a terrible example. You guys, I'm really sorry. [00:21:00] And for little kids, please go away right now. But remember that movie, um, all about Mary? No. What was it called? There's something about Mary, there's something about Mary. You know how the guy was going out on a date? Mm-hmm. And the advice given to him was before you go do the thing. Then he does MATT: mix a batch. FAWN: Is that what he said? MATT: No, but that's what I'm saying now. FAWN: But it's kind of like that, you know, release some pressure. Yes. So when you do the thing that you are in control a little MATT: bit. Well, and also, so it's not uppermost in your mind, FAWN: right? But do you understand the example? Mm-hmm. Why I gave it? Yes. Oh, I feel so stupid. Okay. Um, that's about it. Okay, sounds good. Talk to you soon. MATT: Be FAWN: well. Bye.