Episode Transcript
[00:00:00]
FAWN: Deep, deep listening, requires surrender. You don't guide it, you don't aim it, you make space and wait.
This applies to friendships, parenting, marriage, creativity, even listening to yourself. Thanks for tuning in and thank you for listening. Here we go guys.
MATT: Okay.
FAWN: Welcome to our friendly world, everybody. Welcome. Come back. I'm Matt. Hi Matt.
MATT: Here's my cohort. Fawn.
FAWN: Hello. I didn't know what I was going to say today, and that's the point. I don't think this episode needs structure, polish or conclusions. What it has is presence. That alone is already the teaching for today.
Deep listening only happens when control is released. When control drops something [00:01:00] real can finally arrive.
I don't think we need any more than that. Honestly, I had nothing. I felt like I had nothing to give today for this episode, but this gentle reminder.
My mind is full. My to-do list is so loud,
and instead of pushing through, I'm practicing listening.
We often listen in order to respond. Or listen while we're trying to fix, manage, or steer the outcome. That's not listening, that's controlling. We can say, most of the time we're not listening.
We're bracing.
So that's why I said deep listening requires surrender. You don't guide it, you don't aim it. You make space and you wait
so the question is, what would happen if you didn't try to control the conversation?
What might you hear if you listened without preparing your defense?
What [00:02:00] shows up when you stop forcing clarity?
MATT: Stop forcing clarity. What does that exactly mean?
FAWN: I think so many times we're trying to push our point across to make things clear. Like, Hey, this is who I am, or this is what I'm trying to say to you. This is, this is the truth right here. You know, whatever clarity is, is whatever your truth is that you're trying to push,
MATT: okay.
FAWN: Like with our kids, right?
I'm trying to explain, look, this is dangerous. You're not thinking this through. You're emotional about this. And whatever they say, I'm just like ready to explain what is really going on. Mm-hmm. So instead, I'm just going to listen. Um, actually we were watching another episode of Love Is Blind, the new one.
Oh dear. At first I thought she was a total freight train, but I was watching this one woman in particular, how [00:03:00] she really didn't say much. And at first I did not respect her, but I started respecting her when, when I was watching her just look at someone and her look said it all. And it taught me so much.
But in that moment, I was also thinking, you know what? That's so brave to just look at the person. She's brave. She's just looking at the person and she's getting info. And she's also expressing herself just by looking. And I, and I do say that on our podcast a lot. Like really watch the person like you're watching tv.
Like you're watching a movie mm-hmm. And all will be revealed to you. Not only will things be revealed to you, but you're saying you're giving statements by the way you're looking. Right. And that, that to me was inspiring. So I don't have the answers. I'm just going to listen and [00:04:00] see what transpires, and by listening then I'll just have to have faith that whatever comes out of my mouth will be completely guided by by a divine intervention.
MATT: I remember hearing that like. Oh, and this, this is gonna take a turn, but hey, this is kind of where we're at for this episode. But like policemen, when they have somebody in the suspect room will ask them a question or sometimes not ask them a question. And it's like literally by stepping back and not saying anything, the person feels the need to fill the space and they fill it with, sometimes they'll fill it with their excuse, but they'll fill it.
They'll, people always try and fill it with truth, which is a fun thing to do. It's a, it's a fun thing to realize. I mean, your friends would try and fill that space with some kind of truth.
Yeah, it's so weird. I always have [00:05:00] notes about things that I think I want to say, but this episode is almost intentionally the opposite of that.
FAWN: I usually. Speak a lot when I meet someone new, especially when I'm trying to make a friend. Mm-hmm. I speak a lot because I find that people are too shy to even start a conversation.
MATT: Oh yeah. Big time.
FAWN: And usually I'm the leader in making it comfortable for the other person and in making it comfortable, then I allow myself to become
vulnerable and to give them personal information about me.
MATT: And there you go.
FAWN: And, but then at the same time, now I'm thinking I'm tired of doing that, so I'm just gonna listen and see what happens, what do they say? I'm gonna ask a question. But it's hard because, my go-to usually is to start talking and to start a conversation going.
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I go against that. So it's really hard for me to just be quiet and listen. [00:06:00] The only way I know to do that is with our kids, because they do have a lot to say, and I feel like we're at a point where I'm just constantly having to say, Hey, this is dangerous, what you're doing is going down the wrong path.
You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. And I start lecturing and because I know their responses and I know where they're going, I feel like I do. Right. I'm bracing myself, you know, I'm doing all the things I just said at the beginning of this
MATT: podcast. Right. We practically had, uh, this style of a conversation.
And interrupting, et cetera, et cetera. Conversation you and I did today. Just talking about things or was it, wait, was that yesterday? We were talking philosophy. That was yesterday, wasn't it? It's every
FAWN: day. But like this morning I came to you, I'm like, help me, Matt, because I feel like I'm being, once again, guided, misguided, um, uh, pushed around.
Uh, yanked around by the internet. Hell, you know, [00:07:00] like, I'll Google things to research, right? And then all of a sudden these things come up. Like if I'm, if I'm looking at, um, a red. Something painting, for example. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, okay, this is my goal, this red painting is my goal.
Mm-hmm.
Just as an example. And the next thing I know is I'm getting videos about the red painting and how the red painting is dangerous and the red painting is actually doom. Like it's not going to exist anymore. This thing. And I'm like, so I came to you in the kitchen this morning.
I'm like, help. Because I feel like here is our goal for the family. And because I've been researching it, now I'm getting all the danger aspects of this goal. Like maybe we shouldn't do this goal. And you said you're tired of being, uh, led by fear. You're tired of not doing something because, it's going to end up in a, a bad situation.
We feel [00:08:00] like this is what we should do, so let's just do it and let the chips fall where they may. I'm like, but what if, what if it ends in horribleness? And what'd you say? What did you say? No, I don't remember. Like.
MATT: Well, you were talking very spiritually about things that were gonna happen, that, that there was a possibility for, you know, if we acquired the red painting that, you know, maybe people would try and steal it or, you know, who knows.
But it was on a very spiritual kind of a level, right?
FAWN: I was speaking prophecies, like, um, I was talking about geographic things happening. Geo geographic, like c. Catastrophes happening that were prophesized by like Edgar Casey and Nostradamus, and this is what's gonna happen. We're doomed. And I was like, oh my God, what are we gonna do?
MATT: Right? And I'm practically quoting the Iron Maiden song. Terror. Death Destruction pour from the Eastern Lands Sands. [00:09:00] But the truth of all predictions is always in your hands. All right. I is a poet, and I know it.
FAWN: So yeah. And then we started talking about regrets, like, like going back to when we lived. When we had, we were living in this house and the kids were babies. Actually, our first baby was a baby. The second baby hadn't arrived yet, and you, you came up to me and I was telling you, I remember exactly where I was standing.
I remember exactly what I was feeling when you told me this information. Something about it made me pause. You came to me and this was what? What year was it? It was 2008, maybe 2009. There you go. Probably closer to 2009. And you said, Hey, this thing just got emailed to me. Something about this guy, Satoshi.
They're like talking about this thing called Bitcoin and how [00:10:00] it's going to be a future game changer. And it was like, what? A few pennies. It was like people were buying it as like a few cents.
MATT: Well, people were more minting it, but Yeah, absolutely.
FAWN: And you told me this and because we were so overwhelmed, I let it go and
MATT: broke.
FAWN: Yeah. I let it go.
MATT: Right? And so did I.
FAWN: I let it go, but something about it made me pause and I remember everything like was like a twilight zone kind of pause when you told me. So I should have known, I wish I could have gone back in time. This is one of the things I do regret. There are a few things that I regret, but I wish I could go back in time and go, you know what, let's just charge a hundred dollars on our credit card and get some, who cares?
I mean. Maybe we won't buy groceries this week. Let's just charge it. We would've been,
MATT: who knows
FAWN: billionaires,
MATT: who knows?
FAWN: [00:11:00] I know, but, and then you told me, remember what you told our neighbor
MATT: because our neighbor had this opportunity and I didn't remember to go in on the ground floor of, uh, of a business that ended up being successful and turned well.
Yeah, through convoluted means ended up being successful. And I know people who were offered jobs at Apple. I, I'm secondhand knowledge of a guy who was offered a job at Facebook when Facebook had less than a hundred people, yada, yada, yada.
FAWN: Can you remind me what I said again? Honestly, I don't remember.
What did I tell this guy when he said, oh, he had the opportunity to do this, and he didn't do it
MATT: right, so he got a job offer, but,
FAWN: and by the way, this was the same time period where we were hearing about Bitcoin and Right. This is the same time period where I was like, is the fun. Wish I could go back.
I wish I could go back to that point,
MATT: right?
FAWN: And tell myself, Hey, just charge it. You don't have cash. Just charge it. Buy some. He was
MATT: lamenting that he ended up becoming a teacher, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't matter. Um, [00:12:00] but he was like, yeah, I could have been a multimillionaire if I'd gone and gotten options.
And, and, and, and I could have, I could have, I could have. And you told him to not live in the past that, you know, he was put on his path for a reason, whatever that reason is. And sometimes you don't know what that reason is. You just have to trust, you have to have faith, you have to, yeah, you have to believe in yourself, in your, code of conduct, in, you know that there's a celestial being from thousands of years ago who's looking out for you.
You just have to believe, you have to have faith,
FAWN: and the opportunities that you are meant to do are in. There's no way you can, miss it. Because it, your path of opportunity is your path, right? And you won't miss it because it's yours, right? So we weren't, for whatever reason, we weren't supposed to buy Bitcoin.
MATT: And we can, we can lament that fact all day or we can move on, we can build. And then I [00:13:00] brought forward the combination of sayings now, which is, you know, whether you believe you're standing in heaven or hell, you are. That is a good place to train. So, you know, don't think about necessarily where you are.
Define where you are as being a good place for the, for goodness sake and train, grow experience. Have fun.
FAWN: And that takes me back to listening. So let's go back to the steps to this piece of advice for not just making friends, but just all of life. Listen deeply when you combine listening deeply with. Letting go completely. So yeah, letting go of expectations, letting go of regrets or letting go of what you think you should do, what you think you should have done.
Letting go of like trying to control the outcome of something, but by listening deeply again [00:14:00] listening deeply to yourself and your path. And
that's when you stop performing. That's when you let go. You stop controlling, and then that's when something special shows up. That's when the special friend shows up. That's when your opportunity shows up. That's when clarity shows up. Going back to clarity. So,
and I think that's the best time to make a decision, decide is this my friend? Am I going to make friends with this person? Am I going to take this opportunity? Am I going to turn left or right? But making a decision, I'm gonna ask you a question. What does it feel like when you make a decision? What, what, when you come to a point where you decide,
I'm gonna ask you too, Matt, like what does that actually feel like? I asked you the other day, I don't [00:15:00] remember, was it this morning or yesterday? I don't even remember. But like I, I, I asked myself this question yesterday and I was like, oh yeah, when I decide, it's like a combination of a few things.
Then I'll ask you, Matt. Okay. But for me, it's a combination of like resignation, like it is what it is. I resign, I'm letting go. It's a combination of that and it's a combination of burning bridges. I know it sounds negative, but for me, hold on a second. Okay. It's not negative. It's like it's total freedom.
It's a combination of then moving forward when I decide something, yeah, if I decide to move, I'm burning bridges, like I'm burning the, the attachment that I had. Do you know what I'm saying? I
MATT: do.
FAWN: Burning bridges for me doesn't mean I'm gonna mess people up and like destroy [00:16:00] friendships. It means I'm ready to leave the past behind me and I'm not gonna travel backwards.
I'm ready to move forward. It doesn't mean people can't come and if they feel like, oh, it's such a, a, a, a world where like if you move over here, that's it for our friendship. We'll never be together. Then I know where your friendship stands. I remember when we moved, like, what was it like It was a while ago, like 20 years ago now.
Our first big move. Mm-hmm. I remember I met someone and they were like, oh my God, I'm so glad we're friends now. And then when he found out that we were moving, he's like, oh, I guess that's the end of our friendship. And I thought, really, it's a small world. Like that's the end for you. Okay. Like I knew. He didn't have, he didn't have it.
He didn't have the capacity. Mm-hmm. For that kind of friendship.
Right.
And it was liberating. It was like, and [00:17:00] that's the resignation I'm talking about. Like, okay, alright, that's fine. So burning bridges for me is not that negative connotation that. I mean, you just made that like, oh dear, you know, but, but that's what making a decision feels like to me.
If I break it down,
MATT: okay.
FAWN: And when I make a friend, when I decide to make a friend, in a way, I am burning some bridges in some ways. Like all these things, like all these emotions that I actually wrote down, I jotted down. I'm like, I feel all those things. I don't know why necessarily, but I do feel all these things.
It's a combination of all these things. Even when I decide to make a friend. How about you though? Or like decide anything? How about you? Like what? What do you feel when you make a decision? And I'm not talking about strawberry ice cream versus chocolate
MATT: because it's chocolate, obviously. For me, particularly if it's something [00:18:00] I've been kind of belaboring.
Yes, I do feel that freedom when I make that decision typically. I like to make decisions in the moment too, you know? Literally. And I mean like life decisions, like I decided to ask you out in a flicker of a moment. I knew I was moving in that direction, but the actual moment when I asked you out that was I was open to
finding that right moment and it presented itself and I took it.
FAWN: Don't you think that resignation came into that because you turned in a resignation letter to the world saying, okay, I am done living this path and. I'm resigning my single hood.
MATT: I didn't think it was that grandiose and we were just going out on a date, girl.
FAWN: Well, when you decide, well, you said you had like a two week handgun [00:19:00] rule for friendships and relationships, right? True. I
MATT: did.
FAWN: So in a way it, it was a big decision. I, you finally decided, okay, she's not crazy.
MATT: I suppose it was an easy decision and literally I made the decision to attend the university I attended.
In a moment I made the decision to.
FAWN: Yeah, but what did it feel like?
MATT: It felt free. I felt free and it felt right
FAWN: to me. That's re resignation. There was a
MATT: lightness to it. See, resignation has a heaviness to me,
FAWN: to me, I'm like, I quit. I'm free. Exactly. I gonna go way. I quit
MATT: it. It felt honestly, well, I, I quit
FAWN: this path,
MATT: honestly.
Okay. I've had many singular moments, thank goodness in my life, and I'll have many more. But one singular moment in my life was the moment I shot a hole in one at a disc golf course. And I knew when I released it that that disc was on its way someplace special. And [00:20:00] I watched it the whole way, and I watched it go straight in.
I knew it was something special. There was a rightness to it, there was a purity to it. There was a lightness to it. It was all plus, plus plus happy feelings. And that's what it feels like generally when I make a decision,
like, okay, we're moving, we're moving, you know, in a, in a positive direction.
FAWN: I was gonna say, you know, it's a positive direction or, you know, it's a, uh, it's a positive decision when you feel uplifted. And if you don't feel uplifted, then you know it's the wrong decision. Well then I, yeah, do it. Exactly.
MATT: I don't make that decision.
And
FAWN: same with people, same with making friends. Do you feel uplifted or do you feel like Hmm. Heavy.
MATT: Right.
FAWN: Pay attention.
MATT: Yep. I totally got it. I totally understand. And
FAWN: so that, that's, that's the point of like listening my phone again, sorry guys, but that's the point of listening deeply. And then letting go because you're not gonna control it.
Okay? This [00:21:00] person, you are just getting a, a heavy feeling. Don't control it. Listen, and see what happens. Something real will show up. Some other real thing will show up, A real friend will show up. But listen,
FAWN: So, I mean, especially today, I may not have the answers today. I just know that when I listen deeply and let go, something honest arrives and maybe that's enough.
MATT: True. True. I know I said I didn't have anything else, but, Hmm. One of the things that you really caught me out on right in your intro was listening to yourself. So this goes straight through. Because everything you said is perfectly valid. You know, certainly decision making is listening to yourself and figuring things out for yourself.
So yeah, move from love. Don't move from fear.
FAWN: Okay, so that's it for this week,
MATT: Yep.
FAWN: Have a beautiful [00:22:00] every day, and we'll talk to you in a few days.
MATT: Be well.
