The True Meaning of 'Martyr' and how it Affects Our Relationships

Fawn and Matt get into the etymology of the word MARTYR and figure out what it means within our various relationships within our culture and society.

Martyr the original sense of it, which means feeling torn between two conflicting impulses. We explore that sense of conflict within our relationships: work friend vs your own private life friend.

Can you truly be friends with someone that you work with within a total corporate environment? For example, another example of that without being corporate would be, that most cops are not friends with normal citizens.

And then now that we have the world in so much upheaval, we have politics coming into it. Can we be friends with someone who is so politically agitated or so politically distraught or not even distraught, but just so political, as opposed to back in the day, we used just to be friends with everyone.

There is the religious friend as opposed to the friend who is not of a particular religion. because there's that division and it very much centers around core beliefs.

Another conflicting impulse would be people of the opposite sex. Can men and women truly be friends? And what if you're not of a particular identity? What if you're in a relationship as opposed to being single? Can people who are single truly be friends with someone who is in a committed relationship or a marriage?

Can people who have children truly be friends completely with people who don't have children? When we became parents, this was such

When you're dealing with such polarized sensitivities in our culture, right now, it is an issue. It is an issue because people have different sensibilities for different situations and you can't always gel, especially when the world seems like everything is a trigger. At the root of feeling and being a martyr is the feeling of being torn between two conflicting impulses. What's the whole idea of a martyr and how are we being martyrs these days within our relationships, within our society? How can we transform out of this state?

Transcript - Martyr

[00:00:00] Fawn: Welcome back. Are you guys there? Hello? Hello. Happy every day, no matter what's going on in the world, guys,

[00:00:08] Matt: are we recording

[00:00:09] Fawn: faith? We are recording now. Hi everybody. Welcome.

[00:00:12] Matt: Hello.

[00:00:13] Fawn: Welcome. Welcome. Welcome back. Good every day, no matter what, let's keep the faith. Um,

[00:00:21] Matt: interesting choice

of words,

[00:00:23] Fawn: I guess. So.

Oh. Matt and I were fighting again, you know, we always fight, we get into tifs.

[00:00:31] Matt: What?!

[00:00:31] Fawn: Don't look so shocked as in like, we never fight

[00:00:34] Matt: I'm sweetness and light

[00:00:35] Fawn: mm-hmm anyway. And I was so mad at you. this happened a few times with a few fights. I said, don't be such a martyr. I'm like, and as I was saying it, I realized I really don't even know what that means really but it just felt good to say.

And, um, and then oddly enough, I was Sitting in the academy, I'm in this academy for children's picture book authors, and the word martyr came up. I'm like, here we go

[00:01:03] Matt: for children's books?

[00:01:04] Fawn: Uh, we talk about everything. Yeah. Like we have the deepest, most rich conversations about stories in general and communication.

It's really fascinating. And there's a reason why I'm completely addicted to children's picture books is because they are so deep. You can have hour long, many hours, long conversations about a picture book that is 32 pages meant for a toddler , but, uh, they're really deep. So anyway, then I looked it up myself because as we were talking about the word martyr, our teacher said martyr doesn't mean what you think it means.

And she told us the meaning. So here we go. She told us the meaning, which is martyr actually means witness. And then I looked further into it. I'm like, oh really? Cause I mean, that was just a few second thing of our hour long talk mm-hmm but I got stuck on that word. Right. And so I looked it up myself.

Martyr is an ancient Greek legal term of witness. For someone who gives testimony or evidence in a court of law, that's a martyr. So it originally comes from way back in the face of Roman persecutions of early Christians in the first three centuries of the common era when Christians believers were put on trial, For refusing to participate in their state religious activities, which were regarded as a civic duty, that was forced on all Roman citizens.

Then the word changed after that and had a different meaning. So basically the reason why I'm talking about this, going back to the original meaning of martyr. Mm. and then we're gonna get into like how martyr the name changed because it goes from basically you're in a court of law and you have to go against what you personally need.

You go against your personal pains in pursuit of helping the public, right? So there's a divide it's between the personal and the public, and then it gets into religion later. And you, you can probably talk about that, cuz I think you, I had you think about martyr and where it came from and everything, but then here we go, religion came into it.

When I was looking for the definition, I found this article that was published exactly a week after September 11th. So to be exact, it was published September 17, 2001 by Jim Kane (see article here: https://cmsw.mit.edu/reconstructions/definitions/martyr.html , who back then was an assistant professor of literature at MIT and taught comparative media studies.

He broke down what martyr is with Christianity and also with the Muslim religion. We're gonna briefly touch on that . Right, right, Matt. Yeah. But. The reason why I wanna talk about this is truly it's about feeling torn between two conflicting impulses.

Cause really the whole martyr martyrdom the whole idea of the martyr thing is because I wanna get back to the original sense of it, which means feeling torn between two conflicting impulses. And I wanna talk about that within our relationships. So you have a work life friend and you have your own private life.

There's that separation. Can you truly be friends with someone that you work with in a total corporate environment? Like for example, another example of that without being corporate would be, most cops are not friends with normal citizens. Is that right?

[00:05:07] Matt: Right. Yeah. There is this weird because there's a fundamental, you don't know what we go through.

[00:05:14] Fawn: Right. And then now that we have the world in so much upheaval, we have politics coming into it. So can you be friends with someone who is so politically agitated or so politically distraught or, or not even distraught, but just like so political, as opposed to back in the day, we used just to be friends with everyone.

And it was easier to be friends with someone of a completely different political, viewpoint I

get.

[00:05:47] Matt: That is absolutely

[00:05:48] Fawn: true. You know, then you have the religious friend as opposed to the friend who is more, not, not of a particular religion. And this is something I've noticed lately, too. Someone finds out.

You're not the same religion as they are, even though you're totally open to all religions and you come from a place of love, they will, they will drop you. because, there's that division for them. Well,

[00:06:16] Matt: I think it very much centers around core beliefs, right? Like, you know,

[00:06:20] Fawn: It doesn't at all though?

[00:06:21] Matt: I've always talked about the layers of the onion and if the core of my onion, I am a born again, Christian, and that is something I express and that is something part of my life. I don't want to have parts of my life that aren't gonna help me support that core fundamental belief and in, in, in some ways.

And I think a lot of people don't appreciate even being questioned, let alone challenged about things that are at the center of their onion.

[00:06:49] Fawn: Well, like all these different things that I'm bringing up. I mean, begs for a really deep conversation. Another conflicting impulse would be people of the opposite sex. Can men and women truly be friends?

And what if you're not of a particular identity, you know, having all these different identities, can you truly can our society at the moment being so polarized, I guess that's a word for it. I can't think of a word for it. It just seems like there's such division and that sense of, again, that the conflicting impulse is like really rampant in every area of life right now.

Right. So people of different identities, can you truly, you know, how does that relationship work? How does that friendship work these days? And then what if you're in a relationship as opposed to being single? Can people who are single truly be friends with someone who is in a committed relationship or a marriage? It's different, right?

Can people who have children truly be friends completely with people who don't have children? When we became parents, this was such an idiotic thought to even entertain, like, what are you talking about? Of course. But again, when you're dealing with such polarized sensitivities in our culture, right now, it is an issue.

It is an issue because people have different sensibilities for different situations and you can't always gel, especially when the world seems like everything is a trigger. everything is a problem. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm, like, everything is an issue. Whereas like I came from feeling like nothing's really an issue, man, because the issue is I love you the issue and it's not an issue.

Do you know what I'm saying? Right. My, my thing is I don't really. That's not a deal breaker for me. Mm-hmm I love people of different backgrounds. I love people who live completely different than I do, but when they start harassing me or looking down at me because I'm not them, I'm not like them, then that's a deal breaker for me. Right. Whereas I'm open to, a a circle that is rich with many ideas,. I wanna be well rounded. So that's what I wanted to talk about today is feeling torn between two conflicting impulses and the whole idea of what a martyr is and how are we being martyrs these days within our relationships, within our society. What do you think, Matt? Wow, let's start from, let's go back to the beginning of this article that was written by Jim.

Who like did such a beautiful job of explaining where the term originated, which was from ancient Greek, the ancient, Greek legal term, right. Just means witness. Right. And so, should I read the article or do you wanna explain what the article was?

[00:09:53] Matt: It, it it's basically saying, I mean, it's the legal term, but then it gradually transmogrified into this sense of what are you willing to do instead of bearing witness? And so, like, it was really messed up back in the day because they were, they really went gunning for Christians because Christianity was illegal. And so you would be invited over to somebody's house and just as part of like taking your shoes off and whatever they would, you know, there would be a little altered to some Roman God and they would expect you to, I guess, um, What is it?

Um, do a little ceremony, in the same way maybe there's the ritual washing feet when you go to temple or whatever it is. And if you didn't do it, then they'd be like, he's probably a Christian. Let's go, let's go put him in court. And I'm not kidding. They would do this. Right. And so if they suspected you of anything, they would again, invite you to the house and watch you perform the ceremony or not. And if you didn't then yeah.

[00:10:55] Fawn: And think about all the ways that, that same thing, ritual, whatever it is, has repeated itself throughout history throughout our society. You know, I just thought about like, what happens with,

the one who started blacklisting people in the United. If

[00:11:14] Matt: they, McCarthy McCarthy was responsible for blacklist.

[00:11:17] Fawn: So in the American history, McCarthy was responsible for any, like he really went after artists and he went after everyone basically. And if they thought that you were of like anything related to like.

Any, I don't know. What, how do you even describe it? It was beyond communism, like they were, so they such fear was placed in to the society that if they thought that you were not like them, your entire life was destroyed and people committed suicide because of it. Right? Lots of artists in the movie industry free thinkers writers, a lot of people, a lot of lives were ruined because they were pointed at and basically said you are not one of us. Mm-hmm however way they decided to, label one of us, like whatever that meant. Right. It could have been the way you were breathing that day. Oh, you're not one of us. You're out. and it destroyed people's lives and so how is that happening now?

I feel like that all that is happening rampantly. Isn't it? Why are you looking at me? I

[00:12:31] Matt: am looking at it's it's oh

[00:12:34] Fawn: my God. Here we go. There's here's our

[00:12:36] Matt: fight because there's, there's so many fragments now in society, you know, I can remember when the president of a company I was working at did an all hands on deck call and he said to everybody, Just get the vaccine.

[00:12:52] Fawn: Wow.

[00:12:52] Matt: and there was people that I worked with who were like, oh yes, conspiracies and, and the whole bit, you know, the far right, the far left the center, it doesn't matter. Everybody has their own kind of vaccination thing, you know, is there microchips in there, et cetera, et cetera. And for him to come out and say that, I mean, that was a little gutsy and weird. And, you know, I thought it was an uncomfortable thing because it was taking again a personal decision and trying to mandate it again, creating in the larger scheme of the word a martyr, you know, somebody who's willing to put their own personal and religious beliefs above the political and legal, or in this case, you know, workplace related.

You know, they didn't check up on us or anything, but still it was a weird, random thing for him to say.

[00:13:38] Fawn: And that's just one example. I wonder, I wonder if you go way back, not way back, but if you go way forward in the future, what they truly will realize about the time that we're living in right now, what is happening?

You know, we're gonna have a conversation with a friend of ours next week. Because he had an epiphany and he didn't tell me what it was, but mark, I cannot wait for, not on, not on the show though. Not on the show, but we'll tell you what our friend mark has realized because he has had an epiphany and things make sense to him.

Now I'm like really? How and what are you thinking? I cannot wait because our last fight, by the way, between me and Matt was that I broke down everything that was bothering me in our society and he kind of had more of a Pollyanna, you know, a very, like, everything's gonna be fine.

Everything's fine. It's just the, the pendulum swings this way and that way everything's gonna work out. I'm like, but really? No, no mm-hmm cause I was so upset. I needed to commiserate. I needed someone to commiserate with me. Is that the word? How do you say that? Anyway, can you help me out? What's that word?

[00:14:54] Matt: Commiserate with misery.

[00:14:57] Fawn: Thanks, honey. I just needed to, to, I needed to not complain about it forever, but it was in me and I needed to expel it by just putting words to it and then letting it go. But it led into a fight and then you are like, that's it. Now you've convinced me. The world is terrible.

There's no hope for anything I'm done. And your whole posture, you just gave up, you were like, I give up everything. I'm like, no, no, no. And then you're like, what? Now you're gonna try to be positive? Too late. Anyway, we got into a big fight. And so anyway, hopefully we're back, right? We're back. We're back.

We're good. We, we just, I'm just saying it's important to take note of what is going on. You know, you can't have your partner be feeling at. Case in point I am female. I am not Caucasian. And so I'm experiencing things on a whole other level than my marriage partner is experiencing. Cuz he's white male, like totally different.

You have a completely different way of walking in the world. Do you know what I'm saying? You can be more carefree case in point when we go to the airport, you always thank God. I'm gonna actually knock on wood cuz I don't want you to go through what I go through. Knocking on wood. You have a much better time at the airport than I do.

And that's very similar to how I feel like, I walk in life is like, it feels like things are easier for you. It's more manageable. Not that things are easier for you cuz I mean, you, you feel like you have the weight of the world on your shoulders, especially taking care of our family. I think it's

[00:16:41] Matt: a different kind of weight.

That's the thing that we all need to realize is everyone's going through their own stuff. And everybody has their own burdens that could be vastly different, even in the same families.

[00:16:52] Fawn: Yeah. Pain is pain. You can't say my pain is greater than yours for sure. I totally agree. So anyway, that's that was our fight.

So going back to martyrdom, how do you, so it went from basically being in court and going against what you personally think would benefit your life and testifying for something that would be of greater good. And so there was that conflict. That's where it

began.

[00:17:23] Matt: Well, honestly, I think it's the flip of what you just said.

It's it's me making the choice not to testify because my personal beliefs were higher than the state than what the state would have me do.

[00:17:34] Fawn: Got it. Got? Yes, you're right. And then, so then that was, as time went on, that became like, you became a hero for doing that because you stuck up for your values with your faith rather.

What was supposed to be done, correct? Well,

[00:17:52] Matt: because you, you just chose was quote legal as according to the state, because of course, as we know, the state likes to do things like sanctioned slavery as they did in Roman

[00:18:00] Fawn: times. So you, you went with, you were with your

[00:18:04] Matt: personal and religious beliefs.

[00:18:05] Fawn: Yeah. You went with your personal spiritual beliefs rather than the beliefs of the.

Of the law of the land to the point of being killed by the state to the point of being killed. And then, so those people were considered heroes,

[00:18:19] Matt: certainly by the people who believed the way they did.

[00:18:22] Fawn: Yes. So you were even like given like religious, um, badges or whatever. Well, honestly

[00:18:28] Matt: before the term martyr was actually a term, uh, so in, , let's call it old Testament times.

They would actually read out registers in temple of people who had been quote unquote martyred for their faith or in this case, because it was before martyr killed for their faith and they would read these names out in temple. So they would actually elevate to that whole

next level.

[00:18:49] Fawn: And so speaking of elevate, as time went on, this whole thing became elevated.

So as the world started trading and you met people of different. And you were dealing with other countries, right? Other parts of the world, then it became Christian versus everybody else. So then you really died for your religion because you wanted everyone else to be Christian. Right. Isn't that what happened?

So then they became,

[00:19:16] Matt: that is one of the, one of the starting points. And then it gets even more twisted because of course the French had fights between Protestants and Catholics, but you know, it just further. Yeah.

[00:19:25] Fawn: So then became a, truly like a religious war. And this article was describing

that we tend to think of these days is that's where it came from once, you know, like it, it transformed into that.

[00:19:39] Matt: Right. Right. Well, yeah. And, and a key kind of component to that sense of martyrdom we have now is the sense that, of persecution mm-hmm and the sense of, obviously your commitment to this higher purpose.

[00:19:53] Fawn: Right. And so my commitment, my, I don't, I don't have a commit. , but what I'm saying is I just wanna look at what are the conflicting impulses and can we get over them?

[00:20:07] Matt: Should we get over them?

[00:20:08] Fawn: Yeah, we should get over them. why shouldn't we,

[00:20:11] Matt: it's just an interesting thing. So putting aside my personal beliefs for the good of society,

[00:20:16] Fawn: no.

Oh, yeah. Like for example, well, well, I'm just saying that beliefs are just an illusion, because if you step into some other situation into someone else's shoes, your beliefs will be more fluid. You'll you'll have compassion.

[00:20:39] Matt: The answer to that. It depends because I can immediately something that got all my professors of philosophy, always liked to talk about was of course you bring up the Nazis, you know, and, and that's cuz the Nazis are literally the definition of ultimate evil, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:20:56] Fawn: Wow. You really went to the other side.

[00:20:58] Matt: So, you know, there are certain beliefs that, you know, you can't put aside, like I believe slavery is wrong, so

[00:21:07] Fawn: there are deal breakers. Okay, so yeah, you're right. There are, there are definitely deal breakers. Okay. However, I've seen so many deal breakers that were able to become transcendent.

Like, um, remember that story we saw of the black man who became friends with a KKK member, they became friends. They stepped in each other's shoes and actually became friends. So it is possible. But I think to begin with, you know, not taking it to such extremes of bringing up Hitler and the KKK and all of that, let's, let's take baby steps.

So one of the, one of the things, you know, like for example, the list that I made, like work life versus your personal life, how could we. How can, how can we bring the two together political strife, as opposed to the way we were before you could be friends with the opposite side and still have a fun relationship or fun, fun friendship.

But now it's a deal breaker. If you voted for Trump, you know what I'm saying? Or the other way around, um, someone who I've had this happen the past year. People who realized I was not Christian. They didn't really wanna work with me anymore. Like on projects and stuff, you know, or, well, you know, again, the opposite sex, there's always some tension or someone's gonna get bent out of shape because your friend is of something opposite than you.

And, you know, then sex comes into it because people are so in America, so obsessed with like sex, they're obsessed by it, and then they hide it, but then they have no problem showing violence and terrible things happening. That's okay? That's okay??? But God forbid you see a woman's breasts, you know what I'm saying?

Like, oh, but it's okay to show incredible violence. With crazy machine guns, blowing people up and having body parts splattered. That's okay to see, but oh God forbid you saw a nipple. Do you know what I'm saying? America is insane.

[00:23:36] Matt: And there's the soundbite

[00:23:37] Fawn: folks. Sorry. So, and then, you know, and you have the married people versus the single people.

[00:23:42] Matt: I think, again, it's, it's layers of the onion and it's about, choosing how far into your onion you let people go and having an understanding that just because someone fundamentally disagrees with you on a point that you hold very dear, it doesn't have to be a deal breaker, you

[00:24:00] Fawn: know?

And why does it have to be such. Me against this, you know, why has it become, so what's the word again? Why, why the such extreme polar opposite? Well, it's me against this.

[00:24:18] Matt: It's it's, it's manipulation by media. It's manipulation by, um, mostly media, honestly, but, um, you know, making it we're so we're so polarized right now, in that I'm right. You are wrong. Not even, I'm mostly right. And you're mostly wrong. It's I'm right. You are wrong. It's very binary. It's very black and white now, which is ironic because that's how I saw the whole world until I was like 22, 23, 24, when I started to see shades of gray. And that's one of the reasons why I can be okay with it.

Um, you know, my best friend for the longest time he was very moderate and I'm not very moderate. And so every once in a while, we'd, we'd start circling the horses and talking about whatever it was that we were talking about and it would get a little heated. And now one of my best friends is, uh, he's starting to feel more and more comfortable showing me how far removed from my, from my beliefs that he is.

And that's, you know, the trick is we're being respectful of each other. And the trick is to maintain a sense of curiosity, not a sense of judgment. And that's a tricky thing. That's a hard thing. It's like when I start a new job, I don't want to go in and immediately start saying, wow, you do everything is wrong, cuz I'm just gonna get a brick wall and they're just gonna punch me in the nose and send me on my way.

You know, and that'll be that and the same way that we see ending friendships, but of course, getting terminated from jobs is a very different experience. I'm being very careful. And so I'm making careful suggestions and I'm starting to get more and more passionate about the things that I'm doing. And as a matter of fact, you don't even know this, but I had a quick sit down with my boss on Friday just to say, Hey, am I pushing too hard?

Should I stop? Because I, I really enjoy being here and I wanna be here. And he told me rock on so I can continue, but it's, it's checking it. And I think you also, you need to check your friends too and make sure that you're not going too far. You're not, you know, you're not challenging them too much because people come to truth, not through words, but through experiences.

Right. That's a heavy thing. Herman Hesse said that. It's been said in many different ways, you don't understand something until you experience it. And, and in the same way that they always talk about, you know, an enlightenment doesn't happen because of a series of words, an enlightenment happens because of an experience or because of a meditation, which again is an experience.

This is how we truly reach enlightenment.

[00:27:01] Fawn: True.

[00:27:01] Matt: You know, sometimes, even when it comes to you through someone's words, you still need to process it and make it yours. And so we can't have a discussion where I'm lobbying for the death penalty and you're lobbying against the death penalty.

And neither side is gonna say, you're right. Both sides are gonna have to disentangle ponder and come back to it. And, but the thing is, is we get so heated and so wanting to convince that our worldview is right, because it's our worldview. I mean, that's where we live and

[00:27:35] Fawn: it's such a base level consciousness.

It's such a, it's such a low level way of thinking. It's about, it's like being stuck in that mode of like ownership. I wanna take this, I wanna have that. I'm entitled to this. I'm entitled to this belief. I'm entitled to have this, whereas like really, I, you said you have to check your friends to see, where they're coming from.

You really have to check yourself and we have to check ourselves. I have to check myself and think, am I really attached to this one belief? It's either my belief or some other belief. And I feel like for me, I am not going to fall in that trap of getting to that mode where everything is a belief system, where in fact, it's all an illusion that you can't be attached to things. Ideas are things. You can't be attached to anything.

If you wanna flow and bend with the wind and not break, not have your heart break, not have your life so broken, not have our relationships, our friendships broken; don't hold onto any particular belief, just like, you know, let's, I wanna be more like, I've never surfed in my life, but I always use the surfing analogy.

Like I just wanna go with the waves, you know, and ride it as opposed to being swallowed up. I don't want to be attached to anything, any belief, any physical object to own at this? I just think our, our way out of this such polarity is to not be so attached. You always describe having an empty jacket in martial arts.

[00:29:32] Matt: Yes.

[00:29:32] Fawn: When you're fighting with someone, you know, let them have the jacket and you're walking away, they're still fighting, but it's an empty jacket.

[00:29:41] Matt: See, my wife wants to become a Buddha. And this is actually a great segue because aside from of course, the Buddhist monks who light themselves on fire to protest war, a traditional Buddhist martyr is someone who understands in a future life because there's a circle of, of life.

And you, you get reborn into a higher, lower phase. It's very Dharmic. They will postpone their enlightenment or their transition to their next phase in order to help others. That's a Buddhist martyr, which is fascinating. But now back to you, freedom from attachment is a wonderful concept.

Absolutely. But it's an impossibility because if I just go with the flow, then by all means imprison me by all means be an alt-right.

[00:30:30] Fawn: See, you had to take it there. I said baby

steps.

[00:30:33] Matt: Ethics does. That's what philosophy wants us to do a philosophy wants us to be able to philosophy

[00:30:40] Fawn: like that will keep us stuck.

I'm just saying the baby

[00:30:43] Matt: steps. I'm saying the core onion. There's a, there's, there's a core onion to me. So we're screwed. No, no, hold on. And as long as we can both agree that slavery is a terrible thing, as long as we can agree on probably there's probably about a hundred other things in there that I can't think of.

But see,

[00:31:02] Fawn: you're saying we have to agree by the way. I do agree.

[00:31:05] Matt: Right. And that's just it. I can be friends with you if you have a different view on, uh, you know what the second amendment means. I can be friends with you. That's not sitting so tight in that, but

[00:31:16] Fawn: you're taking it to the extreme. I'm just trying to start this process going for turning our society a little bit more friendly.

By just taking baby steps, right? Yeah. I'm not gonna be friends with Hitler. Well,

[00:31:32] Matt: see, there you go. You're no longer a Buddha. I'm sorry, babe.

[00:31:36] Fawn: I had never said I was a Buddha.

[00:31:38] Matt: You said freedom from complete

freedom from attachment.

[00:31:41] Fawn: I did not say complete. I just said I I'm trying to for myself, not be so attached to the material and not get so triggered.

The other day I was driving the kids to the dentist and I saw a car, two cars in totally different neighborhoods that definitely had like signs on them that were scary. And I got triggered. Right. You know, and it's so funny because our, our pediatric dentist who's like to me, like a total Buddha, like I love him.

He was like, you know what? You're never gonna not see that. You're always gonna see something that is opposite from you. That will trigger you. You're always gonna see it. So, you know, and I don't remember what he said after that, but the feeling I got was, yeah, you're right. It's always gonna be there, but am I gonna let it affect my circle?

No.

Anyway, baby step, I kind of wanna close the show off here. Right? Take

[00:32:44] Matt: the question. Try not to hold so much attachment if you're discussing something, try

[00:32:51] Fawn: isn't that what I said?

[00:32:52] Matt: Yes, absolutely. But it's not in all things. It's on this thing you're discussing. Keep it light. Ask questions, be curious.

[00:33:02] Fawn: Well, I'm just saying don't get sucked.

Don't into the pit.

[00:33:04] Matt: Don't expect the other. Side of the table to have any amount of enlightenment as far as what your

[00:33:10] Fawn: position is, but see, that's another attachment right there to expect the other side to agree with you or to come around said, don't did you okay? don't expect anything from anyone else.

I'm not going to expect anything from anyone else from now on. I'm not gonna expect someone to be a certain kind of friend. You know what I'm saying? I'm just gonna keep going my own Merry way.

[00:33:34] Matt: Right. Focus on the common ground probe, maybe a little bit, but not with a huge amount of intention.

[00:33:41] Fawn: Probe is a nasty word.

It is. Isn't it. It's gross.

[00:33:45] Matt: Didn't Ford have a car called the probe.

[00:33:46] Fawn: I don't, I don't know. just stop. All right. All right. So let that be a thought for a few days until we talk to you in the next few days.

[00:33:55] Matt: There you go.

[00:33:56] Fawn: Love you so much. Thank you again for listening. Go to our website, get your free copy of the Ikigai of Friendship workbook. Reach out to us. Talk to us. If you wanna come on our show, reach out to me, just go to contact on www dot our friendly world podcast. What is our, what is our,

[00:34:19] Matt: our friendly world

[00:34:19] Fawn: podcast.com. Is it. Yeah, it's www.our friendlyworldpodcast.com. Uh, go to contact, click on that. I'll get I'll. I'll, I'll have a conversation with you if you wanna come on our show.

And if there's something you wanna talk about something you wanna get off your chest, let us know, love you. Talk to you in a few days. Be well, bye.