“The Scorpion, the Frog, and the Art of Stoic Friendship”

Frog, Scorpion, Stoic [00:00:00] Fawn: Welcome back everybody. Welcome back. [00:00:03] Fawn: Hello. [00:00:03] Fawn: I have different headphones on. So you're right, Matt. It sounds different. [00:00:07] MATT: I told you. [00:00:08] Fawn: Sounds way different. Anyway. Oh my goodness. Welcome back. So today we are talking about the frog and the scorpion, which we talked about a few years ago, but Yes. I want to revisit that fable. [00:00:22] Fawn: Is it a fable? [00:00:23] MATT: It's one of Aesop's fables.. [00:00:25] Fawn: And It's good to revisit it after, like, four years or something, or five years. Because we have a different perspective now than five years ago. I think the world has changed so much. But, change is the key word. Because what we talked about before was, the nature of individuals. [00:00:45] Fawn: Whether people can fundamentally change, [00:00:48] Fawn: The nature of human beings [00:00:51] Fawn: the different aspects of relationships, recognizing when to end a friendship, understanding the dynamics [00:01:00] that lead to re entering one [00:01:02] Fawn: and going beyond just thinking optimistically to recognizing inherent behaviors in others. [00:01:11] Fawn: And really thinking about if people can really change, or if they are bound by their nature, much like a scorpion and a frog, [00:01:21] Fawn: is change possible? Yes, we can have deep self awareness, or people can try to have deep self awareness, but it takes effort. And The willingness to break ingrained patterns. [00:01:38] Fawn: So, the takeaway we had back then, five years ago, was just looking at this whole story and thinking of the importance of discernment in relationships. Recognizing when to walk away from harmful dynamics versus when to hold space for growth. Remembering, yes, compassion is beautiful and it's [00:02:00] necessary, but also the need to protect yourself from people who repeatedly show harmful patterns. [00:02:07] Fawn: Or their own patterns, right? Right. So, Matt, can you, can you tell the story again about the scorpion? [00:02:13] MATT: Yeah, let's, let's [00:02:14] MATT: circle back to the actual story. So this is one of Aesop's fables, I believe. And this means ancient Greek, which is gonna take us into really wonderful places in a minute. But yes, basically what we have is we have a frog and we have a scorpion. [00:02:27] MATT: And they're talking to one another. The frog is swimming in the water and the scorpion comes by and says, Mr. Frog, can you please carry me across the river to the other side? And the frog looks at him and says, But, but you're a scorpion. You'll, you'll sting me if I do. You'll sting me in the middle and we'll, we'll both, you know. [00:02:47] Fawn: We'll both die. [00:02:49] MATT: So that's what the scorpion says. The scorpion says, But if I do that, we'll both die. No, the [00:02:52] MATT: frog says. No, the [00:02:54] MATT: frog says you'll sting me and I'll die. The scorpion says, but if I sting you while you're [00:03:00] swimming in the middle of the river, we'll both die. And so the frog's like, hmm, okay, I'll take you across the river. [00:03:07] MATT: So halfway across the river, like clockwork, the scorpion stings the frog. And as the frog is drowning, he said, but, but now we're both going to die. Why did you sting me? And the scorpion said, because I'm a scorpion. [00:03:20] Fawn: It's in my nature. [00:03:23] Fawn: There you go. Hectic, right? [00:03:25] Fawn: Well, yeah. And so we used this fable to talk about when to trust people that have messed messed things up for you. Right. Or like, screwed you over. when do you walk away? Because it can be family, right? [00:03:39] MATT: It can be a lot of people. [00:03:41] Fawn: Why are you handing me water? [00:03:42] MATT: Okay Laying down and I thought it had a leak and everything. [00:03:48] MATT: So I'm trying to be considerate. Thank you. It's in my nature Thank you for the consideracy. It's in my nature [00:03:56] Fawn: So, okay, all right People tell [00:04:00] you who they are. Yeah, we've all heard this [00:04:02] MATT: right [00:04:03] Fawn: But it's it's tricky though. It's tricky sometimes because it's someone you don't want to get rid of or maybe You wish you could get rid of them from your life not get rid of them you guys But you know what [00:04:14] Fawn: I mean, like walk away from them like, you know, just Walk away, but sometimes it's family. I mean, in my case, I completely cut them off, but because I had to. In [00:04:25] MATT: some cases, it's family. In some cases, it's a co worker. In some cases, it's, you know, maybe even a boss. These aren't necessarily easy entanglements to free yourself from. [00:04:35] MATT: In some cases, it's one person inside of a larger group of friends. So, so there, there can be a lot to them. And sometimes, even though people generally And this is where it all gets funny, because now we're into this realm of greys. People generally tell you who they are. Sometimes they don't tell you, they show you, and you don't see it at first. [00:04:56] MATT: And then you're already emotionally connected to the [00:05:00] person by the time you actually see them for who they really are. [00:05:03] Fawn: And there's also that rule, like, I'm the exception. It can work on both sides. Going back to our wedding again. One of the One of the fiascos from our wedding, one of the lessons, one of the lessons was, like for example, we had, we, oh my god, we spent a lot of money on this thing. [00:05:24] Fawn: And we invited over 200 people, like way over 200 people. A lot of it was obligatory, obligation? Yes, yeah, there's lots of relatives. Friends. Not friends, I'm sorry, what am I saying? Yes, relatives. And so, okay. We have to go to certain people, like our friends or like other people, and say, you can't bring a plus one, if you're not totally with someone, do you know what I'm saying? [00:05:53] Fawn: Don't just look for a date just to come with someone. Please. It's, there's no plus ones, [00:06:00] unless. It's a serious relationship. Do you know what I'm saying? Wow, that [00:06:03] MATT: sounds so clinical. But most of the people we knew, yes, they were in relationships. And the people who weren't were friends with people who were coming already. [00:06:12] MATT: Right. So it wasn't like a first, it wasn't like a, hey, let's go out on this fun, weird date. It was [00:06:19] Fawn: And, and with cousins and stuff, we said, please don't bring your kids. Right. Okay. Just be, it's, you know. [00:06:28] MATT: It's a financial [00:06:29] Fawn: issue. It's really a financial issue for us. And so people would, all of them, across the board, would say, Don't worry about it. [00:06:38] Fawn: And so now, those words for us is a trigger to kick you out of our lives if you say, Don't worry about it. When we're saying, this is specifically what I'm asking you like, I'm asking this of you and you say, don't worry about it. That's a red flag. Right. So everyone was like, don't worry about it. And everyone thought, [00:07:00] even though we did say, Hey, you can only bring yourself, no plus one. [00:07:05] Fawn: Even though we specifically in person told them this, they still thought they were the exception. And guess what? They brought someone else and a whole bunch of their kids. Like, kids that don't even care. Like, pre teens and teens that don't even want to be there. Oh, anyway. [00:07:26] MATT: And the other aspect is, of course, in one case I had, I had a cousin who did this to me. [00:07:33] MATT: And it was the case of, I think that they assumed that we didn't pay for it, or, you know, all of a sudden it became a, well, you know, uncle so and so isn't, isn't, you know, my dad is not a mean, you know, is not a cheap guy, so he wouldn't exclude me and my kids from, I'm sure this was only meant for other people. [00:07:54] MATT: You know, she also [00:07:54] Fawn: did something else that totally To this day, I still have to that to do that [00:08:00] prayer that we, I taught you guys last week, Lord, please help me to forgive this person. Please help this person. Forgive me. Please help us to forgive each other. Please, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Oh, I was, I was so much happened on our wedding day. [00:08:16] Fawn: So much. And I didn't ask for much. I did everything myself, right? And then, the only thing I asked of the photographer, who, by the way, was a friend, no longer, after the wedding. He was photographing it. The only thing I asked him was, Look, from this time, from 2 to 3, can you please just come and take some pictures of me? [00:08:42] Fawn: Me alone, I'm gonna be in this cottage, I just want like a, just me, and never ask photos of me, ever. Right, Matt? True. You'll never see me in photographs. Guess what? 2, 215, 230, 330, 4, still [00:09:00] no show. No pictures of me. At all. So I'm like, okay, it's time to walk down the aisle. Okay. I'm walking down the aisle. I'm like, and so much had been happening so much went wrong that I was trying to collect myself. [00:09:15] Fawn: I'm like, well, at least I'll collect myself and own this aisle. I'm going to walk down. I was walking by myself. And guess who comes strolling as if she's walking down the aisle. That same cousin of yours. Didn't even look at me. Didn't even say hello. Didn't even say congrats. Nothing. Like I was a ghost. [00:09:37] Fawn: Came within inches of me and then walked to my right and I kept walking. What the hell is that? Anyway, I'm sorry guys. I need to forgive this person. Please help. Help. My god. [00:09:49] MATT: Oh dear. [00:09:49] Fawn: Anyway. Just the rule of like I am the exception. [00:09:53] MATT: Right. [00:09:53] Fawn: But guess what? I was expecting people to behave But we invited we [00:10:00] invited a bunch of scorpions So anyway, [00:10:05] MATT: and it's a license to act out at a wedding too [00:10:08] Fawn: What do you mean? [00:10:09] MATT: Well, it's like how often are you gonna have this opportunity [00:10:13] Fawn: to Yeah. To show you to I really dislike you. Disrespect you. [00:10:17] MATT: Mean that was [00:10:17] MATT: the last opportunity they were gonna have to be involved in yours and my circle. [00:10:24] Fawn: Yeah. So they knew that we would like leave. [00:10:28] MATT: Well, they knew that we weren't really hanging out with them. [00:10:31] MATT: Right. I mean, we invited a whole bunch of people I didn't even know. I'd never. You know, I had probably seen at a party, but I hadn't been, you know, hanging out with right? They didn't know me [00:10:45] Fawn: Okay, so Scorpions but and and the exception to the rule because like let's take the point of view of the frog again All right, maybe I'll be the I'll be the exception Maybe the scorpion will be kind to me because [00:11:00] I am being kind to the scorpion [00:11:02] MATT: Right. [00:11:02] Fawn: No, you're not an exception. [00:11:04] MATT: It happens so rarely, you might as well assume that you are always going to be the rule. [00:11:11] Fawn: Say that again. [00:11:12] MATT: It's, it happens so infrequently that you're the exception that you might as well accept the fact that you're the rule all the time. [00:11:21] Fawn: You have to explain that. It's not registering in my head. [00:11:27] MATT: Exceptions happen. They do. People change. They do. Are they gonna change on your watch? Probably not. Probably to, you know, twenty, you know, twenty seven decimal points. There's a, there's a ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine nine nine percent chance they're not gonna change because of you. Because of anything you do. [00:11:48] MATT: Because it's their nature. Because it's their nature. And it's hard to get away from that. [00:11:56] Fawn: So as a Stoic, [00:11:58] MATT: you've been [00:11:58] Fawn: studying [00:12:00] Stoicism. Is that the word? Stoicism? [00:12:01] MATT: Stoicism. So now [00:12:03] Fawn: that we have a five year period where we've, we've really discussed the story of the frog and the scorpion. As a Stoic, how do you look at it, Matt? [00:12:15] MATT: Well, as a Stoic, it's very, it's very, very simple. Um, as a Stoic, you must understand and accept the intrinsic nature of people and things. It's one of, like, it's one of the tenets, as a matter of fact. But, [00:12:28] Fawn: you know, to do that It's one [00:12:29] MATT: of the central points, because, guess what? I have control over Like one thing, in all the universe, I can only control my own values, my own sense of self. [00:12:44] MATT: That's it. That's the only control I truly have in this life. [00:12:49] Fawn: But you know what, Matt? In order for that to happen, I think I have to find time. Find a way to get out of my own [00:13:00] space to look at someone else. I think usually the shock comes in or the manipulation comes in when I'm just so busy and I'm just going to you know Automatically I like go into pilot mode thinking this person will have to behave, but you know, let's go. [00:13:19] Fawn: Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, like I don't have I don't take the time to truly Get out of my own space of what's going on with me and look at this person and to, to scan their fundamental values, to scan their fundamental nature. Right, no, no, [00:13:35] MATT: and you're absolutely right. Yes, that's the only thing I control, but in having an understanding that's the only thing I control. [00:13:42] MATT: I can't change that essential nature in someone else. [00:13:48] Fawn: Yeah, but then you have to say to yourself, am I going to take this person across the river with me? Right. No. [00:13:55] MATT: Yes, exactly. But to come [00:13:56] Fawn: to that conclusion, you really have to have some space and [00:14:00] capacity to think about things. You know what I'm saying? [00:14:03] Fawn: And I think life has become, so I hate, you know, here comes the four letter word. Oh, here it comes busy that this is another danger of busy is that you, you can't make correct decisions being. Hey, you have to decide not to go with this person. [00:14:20] MATT: I can only make decisions that are in harmony with my own values. [00:14:24] MATT: But I'm just saying, if you're busy, you can't see the harmony. As a stoic, I don't care what anybody else thinks about it. [00:14:31] Fawn: I'm just saying, you're not even realizing. When you're busy, you're not even realizing that. You understand? You're not thinking, well, what is this person going to think of me? I'm just thinking about, like, the motions in life and how time is going by so rapidly. [00:14:49] Fawn: Where you really have to, like, ground yourself to, to, what's it called? Anchor. Like, you have to grab an anchor. [00:15:00] And say to yourself, hold on a second. No movements until I take a look at who this is. And I think that's the problem. That things are happening too fast for you to see who it is? Or you're not even thinking, like I said, you're not even thinking, Hey, what would this person think? [00:15:18] Fawn: Or am I going to come across this way? I'm not, I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about it seems like a luxury to say that you have time to even think about things, but It's a necessity. [00:15:32] MATT: It is. And, and that's one of those other things that stoicism teaches you. It teaches you many, many things. [00:15:39] MATT: One of the things it teaches you is at the end of the day you need to reflect on what has transpired in that day. It's, it's almost like a weird reverse meditation. And that's something else I've been going through. I generally go through all the conversations and what not I have over the course of a day. [00:15:54] MATT: And I figure out, are these things truly in line with my values? Are they not [00:16:00] in line with my values? What should I be doing? What should I not be doing? And then I can take corrective actions on it to then align myself to it. [00:16:08] Fawn: So how do you say no to the scorpion? You just say no. That's the hardest thing. [00:16:14] Fawn: Scorpion will make this case. Oh, I hate that. When they like, force you into something. Do you know what I mean? They force your time [00:16:24] MATT: to argue with you. Stoic has been like, the definition of stoic has been mangled to a point where it's like, a stoic is someone who never shows emotion. Right? But, You're acting in terms of, you're acting in like conjunction with your own values and so you don't need to get, theoretically, and this is a hard one for me and everyone else, you don't need to get angry, you don't need to get upset, you don't need to, you don't need to. [00:16:51] MATT: You just say no and that's it. [00:16:54] Fawn: Yeah, but they follow you and they're like, hey, come on. I did this for you and [00:17:00] you're, you're just being whatever selfish and you know, what if they follow you and keep talking, [00:17:04] MATT: you know, they [00:17:05] Fawn: corner you, [00:17:06] MATT: you know, somebody wants to call me selfish. Then that's on them. That's on their values and their virtue. [00:17:13] MATT: I start [00:17:13] Fawn: yelling at them. It has no, what if you can't stop like you, they have you cornered is what I'm saying. Well, how do you get out of it? [00:17:21] MATT: Okay. So what are they saying [00:17:22] Fawn: now? They have you cornered. Yes. And they're now getting aggressive with why you should take them across the river [00:17:31] MATT: right and [00:17:31] MATT: how are they attempting tempting to impugn my virtue because that's what they're trying to do So if they'd say I can't believe you you're so mean you're so [00:17:44] Fawn: selfish [00:17:46] MATT: You're so, you're so mean. [00:17:47] Fawn: Oh, and you're, you're, you're obliged to do this. You need to help out your fellow man. [00:17:53] MATT: You need to help out your fellow man. [00:17:54] Fawn: Right. [00:17:58] MATT: Then you look at them. I mean, [00:18:00] there's, there's a plethora of options. And, um, it's, it's kind of a weird thing because there's all sorts of quote unquote exercises and there's been some really interesting things happening throughout Stoic history around this. But one of the easiest things you can do is you can say, You don't know the half of it. [00:18:16] MATT: If you did, then you'd understand. Drop. [00:18:22] Fawn: Can you say, I gotta go? [00:18:23] MATT: No. You could, certainly. [00:18:26] Fawn: Okay. Alright. [00:18:27] MATT: You're so selfish. You don't know the half of it. [00:18:31] Fawn: Oh. [00:18:33] MATT: Just let it go. Just let it go. All right, you know in point of fact Socrates who's an early kind of pre stoic This is one of my literally one of my favorite stories about this crazy ancient Greek told you we get into the ancient Greeks He He was at a play, or rather, uh, some dignitaries came into ancient Greece, ancient Athens.[00:19:00] [00:19:00] MATT: They were sitting at a play, a famous play, and this play basically mocked Socrates through the whole play, because Socrates was the target for many people. And, during the intermission, the dignitaries were like, Oh my God, who is this person? Socrates, anyways! And Socrates stood up. Said, I'm Socrates, took a bow and sat back down. [00:19:24] MATT: If your virtue is intact, if you are living according to the Tao of yourself, that's what you're doing. Okay? [00:19:35] Fawn: Okay. [00:19:35] MATT: Uh, you know, stoic training includes, included all sorts of wacky stuff. Some teachers would have their prized students walk around with a bowl of lentil soup all day. Looking like an idiot. [00:19:47] Fawn: Why? Lentil soup is great. [00:19:49] MATT: Yes, but you're walking around with it all day. You're not eating it. You're just walking around with a bowl of soup all day. [00:19:54] Fawn: So what? [00:19:55] MATT: Well, people are gonna make fun of you. So [00:19:58] Fawn: what? [00:19:58] MATT: Exactly! [00:20:00] Well sto well stoically said! [00:20:02] Fawn: It's like my favorite song that you showed me. [00:20:05] MATT: Uh oh. You [00:20:05] Fawn: shared with me a long time ago, so what, so what, so what, you, you boring little, anti [00:20:10] MATT: nowhere league. [00:20:12] MATT: It's, it's, it's extremely foul, like beyond foul, so don't, don't listen to it. It's great [00:20:17] Fawn: though. But when we're really outraged and angry, we play that song really loud at our house. It's so great. [00:20:24] MATT: Yes. [00:20:25] Fawn: Stress releaser, releaser. [00:20:28] MATT: Because at the end of the day, you can't, you know, for, for the scorpion to go on the attack. [00:20:36] MATT: It's like [00:20:38] MATT: piss and wind. Who cares? Who cares what the scorpion thinks of you as long as you think well of yourself? Not in a boastful bragging manner, but you are living according to your virtue. [00:20:52] Fawn: Okay, so question, Matt. [00:20:53] MATT: Yes. [00:20:53] Fawn: Ah, friends with scorpions or not? [00:20:57] MATT: Ah, what type of friend? [00:21:00] There are, there's a whole bunch of types of friends, right? Well, [00:21:02] Fawn: obviously not the forever true friends. [00:21:04] MATT: A friend of, a friend of utility, absolutely. [00:21:07] Fawn: Which takes us to work though, right? It does take us to work. with a scorpion? [00:21:11] MATT: Then you have to work with a scorpion. [00:21:13] Fawn: But how do you work with them? [00:21:14] MATT: You make them laugh, you tell them stories, you learn their hobbies, you share your hobbies. And keep a safe distance. But you never let them touch your virtue. [00:21:23] Fawn: Keep a safe distance, yeah? [00:21:25] MATT: Exactly. [00:21:26] Fawn: Alright, why are you yelling at me? [00:21:28] MATT: I'm sorry, I'm feeling passionate. What can I say? This stoicism makes me feel passionate even though it's not supposed to. [00:21:34] MATT: Ha ha ha. According to definitions. [00:21:37] Fawn: I have a scorpion friend, and I'm not talking about the astrology. I have a scorpion friend [00:21:44] MATT: too! [00:21:45] Fawn: But, I've noticed, it took many years for me, because I'm just slow that way, but it took a very long time. And now Every time they talk to me, every time they call, I have, [00:22:00] um, kind of like alarm bells that go off that remind me this person's nature because it's been that many years and it's been that many stings that I have lived through for me to go, okay, and I definitely have a huge, uh, like Um, inner distance. [00:22:24] Fawn: Inner distance meaning I'm not rude to them, I'm still, like, loving. Mm hmm. But the whole time that they're talking to me, I can see what they're really trying to do. Mm hmm. And I can see their motives and, you know, I can see them now very clearly. Right. But it took me, personally, a very long time. Years! Am I still friends with them? [00:22:49] Fawn: Yes. Do I talk to them? A lot? Not at all. It's getting less and less as time goes on, and it's getting less and less, certainly, as I'm becoming, [00:23:00] less able to have the capacity to carry this stuff. Mm hmm. To have it in my life, I don't. [00:23:05] MATT: Right. I get it. I totally get it. It's, it's, yeah, it's one of those things, living in accordance with your best self. [00:23:14] MATT: And this leaves room. [00:23:16] Fawn: This leaves room to have True friendships. I mean, when we started this years ago, people were like, Oh, they probably are like, they're wanting to be friends with everybody. That's not true. We can't. You shouldn't. Right? Right. Can I say you shouldn't be friends with everyone? [00:23:33] Fawn: That's the wrong thing to say, I feel like. But you know what I mean. It [00:23:37] MATT: feels dirty, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. But welcome to stoicism. Live in harmony with your best self. Live in harmony with your virtue. [00:23:44] Fawn: It doesn't mean that you're mean to people. It just means that they are not. In your inner space. [00:23:52] MATT: Yes. [00:23:53] MATT: Layers of the onion. [00:23:55] Fawn: So, anyway. Because [00:23:56] MATT: stoicism also teaches you to have love for [00:24:00] all of humanity. But that doesn't mean you're going to be friends. [00:24:04] Fawn: Right. Okay. Well, that's it. Is there anything else you wanted to add for this week? [00:24:11] MATT: I think I'm good. [00:24:12] Fawn: Are you sure? Every time I press the stop button, you're like, oh, I had these other things to say. [00:24:18] MATT: No, we're good. Are you sure? Yes, I was going to tell the story of, a story of Diogenes, but it's too good for the, no. [00:24:25] Fawn: What? [00:24:26] MATT: No, I'm teasing. No, it's just there's a lot of really interesting stories, that's all. [00:24:31] Fawn: Go ahead. [00:24:31] MATT: No. It doesn't really fit. [00:24:33] Fawn: All right. Next time. [00:24:34] MATT: It doesn't fit. [00:24:36] Fawn: All right. Have a beautiful every day and enjoy the water safely. [00:24:44] MATT: And don't forget Socrates. If you live according to your virtue and your balance, you can have fun. You can make fun of yourself. You can be honest and open and it's all going to be okay. [00:24:56] Fawn: Everything's going to be okay. [00:24:58] MATT: There you go. Be [00:25:00] well.