The people who challenge us (without tearing us down) might be the ones who love us the most.

FAWN: [00:00:00] If a friend never stretches you, is it really love or just comfort? Thank you for joining us. Here we go. Welcome to our friendly world, everybody. MATT: Hello, everyone. FAWN: Welcome back to our friendly world. Did I already say that? Okay. MATT: So what do you mean? What's going on? FAWN: A true friend doesn't let you stay small, and love and truth are not opposites. A real friend supports you and challenges you. There's a concept of loving rebuke, offering correction in a way that preserves dignity, not calling someone out, but calling someone up. What do you think? MATT: Well, it's interesting. I mean, certainly I would say that, uh, friends who certainly have been my friends for a while, yes, I totally get it, but what about, what about the freshies? What about initially? What about- FAWN: I feel like [00:01:00] when I, first meet people, I always get stretched. No, not always. Always is not a word to use. Yeah, I usually get stretched. The ones that end up being my friends, I feel stretched upon first meeting them. I don't know what it is. It could be, wow, this person, looks so different, so interesting. Mm-hmm. Or they just said something that just blew me away, you know? Or yeah, I, I feel stretched when I first meet people. But I don't get out much anymore, so I don't know. MATT: See, that's interesting. You know, for me, I almost wanna say it's, it's the people that maybe I initially... Oh, this is gonna sound really bad, but the people who I initially think are maybe ugly or simple or- you know, blunt, dang blunt, right? FAWN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. MATT: Those are the ones that I become closest to. FAWN: Yeah, like older people who seem so curmudgeonly. MATT: Maybe. Maybe. But it can also- Especially- I mean, [00:02:00] all ages, honestly. FAWN: That's true. But then they end up having a, a beautiful heart and are giving. MATT: Right. Or they're at least willing to commit to stand with you, to meet you somewhere in between, whereas other people, it's like a, it's like a 90/10 thing FAWN: You MATT: gotta FAWN: explain to- They'll meet you MATT: closer FAWN: to the middle you gotta explain the 90/10 thing and where we got it from. I come in 90, you come in 10, or I come in 10, you come in... No. MATT: No. I come in 90, you come in 10. I come in 90, you come in 10. Yes. It's from, it's from a movie. FAWN: Hitch. It was Hitch. MATT: Very old movie now, I suppose. FAWN: Really old. Uh, but it was a dating... It was about dating, and the guy was like, "Okay, for the first kiss, you come in 90, and then you wait, and they come in the rest of the 10." MATT: Right. FAWN: I'm sorry, so I lost, I lost concentration. What, what, what were you saying about the 90/10? [00:03:00] MATT: Well, I'm saying is, is those people who I might initially, like, judge that way, they'll, they'll meet you somewhere closer than 90/10. It feels like a lot of people, it's like, it's almost like, "Oh, God," or, "Oh, I can't hardly be bothered," or you have to persist, persist, persist, persist before they'll meet you somewhere closer to the middle. Whereas it's the, it's the curmudgeonly ones, it's the blunt ones, it's the, it's the ones who you're like, "I don't even think this person even likes me," who tend to surprise me and tend to meet me at the twen- at the 30, 40, 50, 60 even percent range. FAWN: But as far as challenging you, how does that challenge you? MATT: Well, see, the, the, the trick is, is initially, you know, I don't wanna hear somebody who tells me... who's, like, overly critical of me. FAWN: Oh, for sure. No. MATT: You know? FAWN: But that's, I think that's what it was saying you have to be... You have to preserve dignity, right? You don't ever wanna embarrass [00:04:00] anybody and put them down, but you pre-preserve dignity. Okay. I'm sorry, what, what, d-did you finish your thought? I'm sorry, but I'm, I feel very scattered today. MATT: Yeah. Well, I would say that, uh, you have to earn the right to be that critical with me, and you earn that right by being authentic, by being, um, maybe even self-deprecating, I don't know. Mm-hmm. By, by showing yourself off to be an excellent judge of character. I'm not looking for praise, but I'm looking for something authentic before we can really start having, like, deep personal conversations. Let's just have a deep conversation about something. FAWN: I can think of two people, two of my friends who disagree with me completely. MATT: Heyo. FAWN: All the time, and in the beginning especially when we were starting to get to know each other, I had to really fight inside myself to go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't get offended, Fawn. Fawn, don't get offended. Just stand your ground." And [00:05:00] I would stand my ground and disagree with them when they were hardcore disagreeing with me. Like, it sounded like- You know, like we were talking about the sky and I say, "You know, the, the sky is pink and orange." And they're like, "Absolutely not. The sky is blue." You know? And I'm like, "Well, no, it is blue. Yeah, you're right, but during sunset it is pink and orange." And they're like, "Oh, you're right." You know, I'm just obviously picking out some crazy example. This is not how the conversation went. I don't remember the conversation, but it was something where it had to do with everything with our core beliefs, and it was that way. It was so black and white, "No, you're wrong." When I said something, they're like, "No, you're wrong." And it was the beginning of our friendship. And I just said, "Well, I have nothing to lose," to myself I was saying this- MATT: Mm-hmm ... FAWN: that I'm going to explain myself. I had more energy. I feel like once- [00:06:00] Well, when you have friends that you've had for a while or you have acquaintances- Mm-hmm ... you've known, you know they're not really listening to you, so why bother? So in the beginning I was more, I had more energy to explain myself and to say why I think it's pink and orange. You know what I'm saying? Right. And they were like, "Oh, I see your point. Yeah, I understand that." And that blossomed into a better friendship. But as far as preserving dignity, another example like I was thinking of Did I cut you off by the way? No, no. Go ahead. Well, I remember one day, um, I, I was working an office job and I got fired. Doh. And I called my friend. I'm like, "Holly, I got fired. Oh my God. I'm so scared." She's like, you know, I was waiting for her to say, I wanted her to like say, "Don't cry. It's gonna be okay, Fawn. Yeah. Oh, you know, they were awful." But [00:07:00] she's like, "Good." She said it just like that. "Good." I'm like, "Whoa. Why are you being so mean to me?" And she said, "Because you don't need that job. You're hiding behind that job. You should be doing your photo shoots. What's wrong with you? Get out of there. You need to get out. You needed to have gotten, got out of there for a lo- like, like a long time ago." And I'm like, "Mm-hmm. You're right." But you know, she challenged me, she pushed me. MATT: Mm-hmm. FAWN: But she also did it in a way that still preserved my dignity by reminding me of who I truly am, that I'm not this person. This job is not my life, and it's definitely not my path. So in a way they did me a favor because I need to be on my path, you know? I don't know. That's what I thought of when thinking about people who stretch you. That's one example. 'Cause I was like, "Oh, I don't [00:08:00] know if I could give examples really." But, um, so there you go. MATT: Well, you know, the more I think about it, the more I think I'm the stretcher. I like to stretch other people out. And, and when they come back at- FAWN: Well, you get mad if I come at you with something. MATT: Well- FAWN: You do. You get mad at me. MATT: Uh, ex- squeeze me? FAWN: You do. Or, or I'm scared of you. MATT: I'm offended. FAWN: I'm not scared of you like that. But I'm just saying I- I'm like, I don't wanna hurt your feelings. And I know... And I... The last thing I wanna do, honey, is stress you out. So how... Yeah, I don't know. I guess I do stretch you, but in different ways. I'm like, "Okay, we're moving again, honey." So for a person who does not like to move. No change. MATT: Well, I have this... I think I have this nasty habit of, like, lobbing a little incendiary comment in with someone that maybe I haven't, like, we haven't spent enough time together where I haven't, on some level, earned the [00:09:00] right. But because it's such a self-evident truth, I just throw it out there. And then when they come back to me, you know, oftentimes the comments I'll make are, are gonna be things that, um, are, are just plain true. No ambiguity. Usually it's a computer concept or some such, or it's like a factoid like, you know, um, um... I can't think of any factoids. London is the capital of England, for instance. You know, these are just, these are just plain facts. And if somebody comes back to me and is like, "Well, that's not true," I just say something like, "Truth is truth." And that's it. Right. That's all I'll say to it, 'cause it's no point in getting ar- into an argument about it. It's just... It's, it's a fact. It's not even my opinion. FAWN: I can see how y- y- now that I, I have some moments to, uh, let that sink in, you do stretch people. You also stretch people with language, because you're always coming up with old-timey phrases and words that most people never use anymore, [00:10:00] and that definitely stretches a person. Oh, lord. Because the person has to say, "What? What is that?" MATT: Right. FAWN: Like, I can't think of any examples right now, but I don't know where you get them from, honey. But like old-timey- MATT: Clubhouse turn, which I'm probably wrong about, by the way. FAWN: Oh, yeah. Today was clubhouse turn. But like, yeah, you come up with these weird things, and it's like things that haven't been recited in over 100 years, like from another lifetime ago, another era. I mean, an era that's over 100 years old. MATT: Right. FAWN: So that's definitely a way to stretch someone. MATT: Yeah. I think it, I think it reminds people that, um, language and, you know, the way we communicate certainly has shifted and changed and a million other things, and it wasn't always, like, people speaking in three-letter, acronyms. I was like, "Anagrams." No, acronyms. TLAs. FAWN: Also You've been wearing... Like, there's a crazy hat that you got for [00:11:00] my birthday that is highly, um... What h- what's the description for this hat, man? MATT: Festive. FAWN: Highly festive, yes, but, um, it's blindingly appearance. Okay. Like, it, it has rhinestones all over it. It's a baseball hat, but it's covered with rhinestones, and it says lucky. MATT: It says luck. FAWN: Oh, luck, luck. That could be a stretcher, too- MATT: Oh, it, it FAWN: always does ... for some people. I mean, there was a man today, we went out, you said was glaring at you the whole time. Yep. Because- MATT: People fundamentally don't understand that hat ... FAWN: yeah, like a man, especially a manly man like you, like, what are you doing wearing that hat? Right. That's crazy. MATT: It's almost like you don't deserve it? FAWN: Well, I think, you know, what are you, a, a crazy liberal? What are you doing wearing that hat? Indoors, too. MATT: Or are you just- I mean ... [00:12:00] super festive? FAWN: Mm. MATT: You know, people, people draw whatever inferences they want, but that's not on me. That's on them. FAWN: I feel like we have to be careful, though, stretching people right now. I think people are already stretched, so I'm kinda scared. Like, oh, man, I don't want to have any confrontation happening. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Right. FAWN: So there has to be a stretch that makes you grow in spirit rather than a statement that you wear. You know what I'm saying? Well, no, I- I feel like we have to be really careful and I am very MATT: careful about the things that I, I wear, and even though luck hats be darned, um, you know, there's nothing you can point at to say, "Well, you must obviously be th- this, that, the other." Honestly. You know, if people really take a moment to look at it, it's just people's initial knee-jerk reaction is that makes no sense. It, it literally, it's, that does not compute. It just doesn't... Noth- nothing about it [00:13:00] fits. FAWN: And going back to is it love or is it just comfort? So what? Why can't we have friendships that are just comfort? Yeah, maybe we, we shouldn't be growing every single second. Yeah. You know? What's wrong with just being comfortable? But then it does get boring because it's, that kind of friendship, if it's, if it's that way all the time- MATT: Right ... FAWN: then it's like, I... I've, I've, I've had a friend like that, and I, we are no longer friends because seriously, it was, like, maddening. It, it was... It wasn't even cotton candy. It was like rotten, decomposed, rotten candy. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Well, yeah, but I would argue, I would argue that on a big, on a different term because a friendship to me is, is, is almost a narrow slice of This graph that I would call relationships, because you have enemies, you [00:14:00] have lover, um, and you have just a, a, a gamut, and you may be in between, maybe it's all the same gra- who's to say? Who knows? But I would, I would argue that the people that you are friendly with and you have that kind of relationship with, I don't know if I'd call them a friend. I would call them something else. Like, I'm very careful, you know. This whole... Seems like this whole universe is so drawn to labels and labeling things. FAWN: Yeah. MATT: And that's fine. FAWN: I don't think it's MATT: fine. I, I choose to label that, like maybe it's a work acquaintance, or maybe it's a neighbor, or maybe it's a, maybe it's a, maybe it's a- FAWN: I, I don't understand how everything has to be labeled these days, and I, I hate it. I hate it. I think, I think it's really stupid. Um- MATT: And yet you would label a friend. FAWN: I don't know. Would I? MATT: You just did, and I said relationship. [00:15:00] FAWN: Well, we're talking about friendship. I'm not sure if I'm labeling... No, I'm not labeling anybody as a friend, especially the last few years because I've become the person where I'm trying to help on the podcast. Like, I'm like, I'm like, "You know what? I think I'm done, guys." Oh, dear. "I'm all right. I'm all right by myself. Yeah, it's lonely, but oh, well." You know? And I'm- Whereas I'm the MATT: social butterfly. FAWN: Yeah, we've switched. Um, I'm, I don't know. I... So I'm, I'm trying to get back. I'm trying to get back to being more open to creating, bonds with people. But I've been thinking lately that, no, I, I wouldn't label anyone as a friend, really. I mean, I use the term like, "Oh, friend," because, I mean, you... I don't know how else to say it. Do you know what I'm saying? MATT: Mm-hmm. Right. You certainly [00:16:00] wouldn't say, "I'm in a relationship with that person." Everybody'd be misinterpreting FAWN: that. Exactly. Right. Right. So anyway, any- anything to add? MATT: Well, I almost wanna get back to where you originally started when you said a true friend doesn't let you stay small, and that's a good identifier for a true friend. So this is someone who, yes, maybe they're acerbic, maybe they're confrontational, maybe they're... But they make you look at yourself and see yourself through other people's eyes, through, through your friend's eyes, and you notice that maybe you could be so much more That, they see in you so much more. And I have friends like that too who just think that, I'm hung on the moon, and that's cool. That's totally cool. These are good people to have. And I just did it again, didn't I? Hung on the moon. That's one of those turns FAWN: of phrases. Yeah, I was gonna let it go. I, I- That's one of them ... I didn't even realize it. That's- What does that mean? MATT: That just means that you're the bee's knees, that you are- FAWN: The bee's knees too then.[00:17:00] MATT: That you're excellent. FAWN: Uh-huh. MATT: But anyways, um, you know, and, and this is important, . I, I wanna say there was a point in time where every person I considered a friend was almost like, or beyond almost like, was a hero to me. And I wanted them, I wanted all of my friends to feel like, I wanted us to feel like when we were together we were the legion of superheroes. And I wanted to be seen that way by them too. FAWN: Mm-hmm. MATT: And that was, that's a big part of it. And so being friends with them makes me better, and hopefully them being friends with me makes them better. Because we hear, we grow, we share, we laugh, we joke about ridiculous things. We, we challenge each other and, and then laugh about the challenges and yeah, and go from there. Go from the heart. FAWN: I think that's where we should leave it right now , for today. What do you think? MATT: Sounds, sounds good to me. [00:18:00] FAWN: Thank you for joining us, everybody. Have a lovely every day, and we'll talk to you in a few days. MATT: Be well.