Episode Transcript
Improv and Friendship
[00:00:00] FAWN: Hello everybody. Welcome back. Hello. Hello. How you doing? Oh my goodness.
[00:00:05] MATT: What are we doing today? What are we
[00:00:06] FAWN: doing today?
[00:00:07] MATT: Have you ever found that, you thought you were just kind of bebopping through and just doing your own thing, and then all of a sudden you discover that one of the frameworks that you have, even for communication, you're totally stealing from somewhere else.
[00:00:21] MATT: There's totally rules for it and you never realized it? I have no
[00:00:26] FAWN: idea what you're talking about. And
[00:00:28] MATT: there you have it, folks.
[00:00:30] FAWN: Why you say that?
[00:00:34] MATT: Anyways, I found out, oh my goodness. There's this thing called improv. It's comedy, right? You know, you watch, what was it? Watch. Oh God the hell. You say what? Exactly.
[00:00:45] MATT: There's this improv. It's a way of doing comedy where it's like from the audience, it's like, yes, name an object, name a blah, blah, blah, and name a, and the actors on stage kind of have to go with
[00:00:57] FAWN: that. . Oh my
[00:00:58] MATT: goodness. Anyway, what's going on? How is a conversation, not improv?
[00:01:02] MATT: How is hanging out with your friends? Not dissimilar from an improv show? I never
[00:01:08] FAWN: thought about it like that, but that's true. Yeah. I mean, you're just kind of, especially when you're light on your feet. Oh my God. This explains your family. They're not into improv. Oh, they're heavy on their feet. Oh. If it's not scripted, All you get from them is nothing.
[00:01:26] FAWN: So if you bring something to the conversation, you're met with crickets, they ignore you,
[00:01:31] MATT: or they, they, their script and they and diverted convert it back to something
[00:01:34] FAWN: they know about. They go back to their script. Right. And it's the same thing over and over. Like Looney Tunes. Like Looney Tunes. I don't know what Looney Tunes is that derogatory.
[00:01:44] FAWN: What is that? Loony Tunes
[00:01:45] MATT: is Bugs Bunny.
[00:01:47] FAWN: It's it's just, it's a gravity, but it's crazy. It's little crazy. It's, it is well,
[00:01:50] MATT: it's when people have such deeply held beliefs, they either have to confront you with denial or they have to divert the subject back to someplace they're comfortable.
[00:01:59] MATT: It's disturbing
[00:02:00] FAWN: and it's alienating. It makes me feel like they hate me. They want nothing to do with me, and if I don't abide by their rules. I'll just be canceled, right? Meaning ignored, which is what often happens
[00:02:14] MATT: right now. Now keep in mind, this has nothing whatsoever to do with, you know, I really need to tell you something, so dot, dot, dot this completely is just like when you're just hanging out with a bare minimum of agenda.
[00:02:29] FAWN: So if you were to put a title on what we're talking about today, what is it? It
[00:02:33] MATT: is relationships and the Five Rules of Improv. Okay. So, ooh, that should have good Ss e o. Alright, let's go
[00:02:42] MATT: Okay? So go on. Okay, so first rule of improv.
[00:02:47] MATT: First one, you are not allowed to say yes, but.
[00:02:53] FAWN: You're supposed to say yes and you already
[00:02:56] MATT: know the rule. Well,
[00:02:57] FAWN: I studied some acting in college. You
[00:03:00] MATT: already know the rule. Now, what does this help us do? What, how does this, how does this change our conversations
[00:03:07] FAWN: with people? Especially nowadays, because we're so divided in the world, right, with politics.
[00:03:13] FAWN: So chances are we're gonna say, no, you are wrong.
[00:03:17] MATT: And a yes, but is
[00:03:18] FAWN: a lot like a no. And that's why we started fighting starting in 2016. We had some big,
[00:03:25] MATT: loud fights. Now, hold on. We started fighting in. 2000 and whatever it was probably our third day when we got together and we actually met in martial arts class.
[00:03:34] MATT: So we started fighting on day one.
[00:03:36] FAWN: They, the combat was always
[00:03:37] MATT: there. We, we, we, we fought before we even
[00:03:40] FAWN: knew we were dating. By the way, you guys, for those of us who are new to us, we're not talking about abusive fighting, we're just talking about martial arts and training. Training and also communication because Matt is totally different than I am.
[00:03:55] FAWN: Completely different. I think differently than you, I operate differently. And I
[00:04:00] MATT: started studying a keto just to help myself better connect to people.
[00:04:03] FAWN: And I came in because my friends kept pushing me to go to Aikido rather than what I was doing, which was smashing and destroying limbs and stuff,
[00:04:14] FAWN: yes. So, this totally makes sense. So
[00:04:17] MATT: yes. And. Is,
[00:04:19] FAWN: and this is verbal by the way, like we're, we're saying combat, but I just wanna explain that we're not abusive to each other. I understand. Okay. For those of, for those people who just are tuning into us, like they don't know who we are, we are radically different.
[00:04:34] FAWN: Everything about us is opposite. He's tall, I'm short, he's white. I'm not white. Blue eyes. Brown eyes, right brain, left brain. Oh my goodness. Like yin yang. Like people see us and they're like, how are they together? And we have kids. Anyways. Anyway, let's
[00:04:54] MATT: move on. Right? So yes. And allows us to build as opposed to sparring, basically you're building, you're constructing something.
[00:05:03] FAWN: Yeah. And you know what? This works with Aikido because you're not breaking the other person's body or their, what do you call it? The other thing, ego. So you're not saying, no, you are wrong. You're like, okay. Yes, and exactly. So if we were to use these right now, especially in our country, I think we would get along better, so you're right.
[00:05:26] FAWN: Good, good, good. Show today, honey. Yeah, that. I think this is a really good key.
[00:05:32] FAWN: Oh
[00:05:32] MATT: my goodness
[00:05:33] FAWN: to staying friends. Why are you saying, oh my goodness. Just because you're, what's wrong with me? You're funny. You are funny. I'm not crying. You're crying. Okay. Go on. Go
[00:05:41] MATT: ahead. Okay. The next rule of improv is you're up on a stage, right?
[00:05:46] MATT: You're in front of ostensibly a bunch of people, and when you do that, you should be bold. Rather than cautious, let it all fly. And honestly, inside of a relationship, it's important to have a clear sense of yourself, which is one of those things we always talk about know thyself, but also to put it out there and be strong about it rather than careful, cautious, because that way the best time to have the conversation about how wrong your ideas is is at the beginning, before they get so deep seated. If somebody disagrees, then you talk about it, but you talk about it not saying yes, but, but saying yes, and, and, and hopefully if your ideas really are wrong, then they're challenged and discarded, maybe.
[00:06:33] MATT: But if your ideas are strong and they're right and they feel good to you, then you're gonna express that to the other person too, which is important, which helps build something. Again, it's about building something, and that's building a relationship, building a friendship.
[00:06:48] FAWN: So is this kind of like what I say, like when I first meet someone, I let it all out.
[00:06:53] FAWN: You let it it all out. I'm just, this is me. This is who I am. Right. Like it or leave it. Bye-bye. I have things to do, right? If you don't like me, I'm not gonna hide anything from you. You're seeing the full shebang. Is shebang okay to say? I don't know. You're seeing, you are seeing my full. Self. Right. I'm not hiding
[00:07:12] MATT: anything.
[00:07:12] MATT: Right. Whereas I would say you should probably do just a little cautious, but only a little, and you should mostly be bold.
[00:07:19] FAWN: I wish I could be cautious. I don't. I just, I, I'm, I'm, wild. I don't know. There you go. It's just all out, man. I don't, it is, I don't have the energy to like rein it in.
[00:07:31] FAWN: Right.
[00:07:31] MATT: That definitely
[00:07:33] FAWN: trigger fall. My is how you is say, is it
[00:07:34] MATT: reign? It is and it's like, like bring it in. You're pulling in the reins on a horse,
[00:07:39] FAWN: right? You're pulling
[00:07:41] MATT: the, you're, you're slow. That slows the horse down the
[00:07:43] FAWN: cord to whatever your anchored to is. Bringing it close. I like to be free, man. I don't like, I don't like to be corded to anything.
[00:07:54] FAWN: Heyo. Okay.
[00:07:56] MATT: Interesting. Number three. If you're performing improv, you're not doing it by yourself. There's no star. Everybody is a supporting actor. Everybody. So when you're having conversations with friends. It shouldn't be between the alpha and the beta as we've talked about before.
[00:08:18] MATT: It should be between the alpha and the alpha, and everybody is, you know, since everybody is a supporting actor, Everybody's looking to have you succeed. Everybody's looking to understand, everybody's looking to, be able to, making sure that the other person is able to convey whatever it is they're trying to
[00:08:40] FAWN: convey.
[00:08:40] FAWN: And I, again, this isn't new, this isn't what we've been talking about. Well, again, we, we've been saying the art of being a good host.
[00:08:48] MATT: Yes. Yes. And yes. And is that, so, is that, is that the equivalent? That's, that's just it. It's, it's the amazing part of just having an understanding that, what you've been doing follows these interesting rules that have existed for this form of quote unquote entertainment.
[00:09:06] MATT: Right. I mean, do you remember when, we were at a supermarket? And I was gone. I was just riffing. We were just having a good time, but I was riffing, especially, well, the supermarket
[00:09:15] FAWN: is the only place we have a good time. I feel like it's our Disneyland. But
[00:09:18] MATT: somebody asked, are we on a reality show right now?
[00:09:22] FAWN: Oh yeah. Okay. So when Matt and I go shopping , it's like our own outing really is to go. It used to be our only outing. It used to be our only outing, especially when we lived in Washington state on this island and had babies. And we had babies. And also that's when we realized, wow, people don't know how to have friends and mm-hmm.
[00:09:40] FAWN: There was like, we were so alone and we're like, what's wrong with us? We never had problems before. So anyway, our outings were at the store because we, we new parents, we had babies and. We had nowhere to go and we were on an island and people were not friendly. And we had to shop. We had to shop. And that's pretty much all we did was like, go get groceries, cook.
[00:10:04] FAWN: Take care of everything. Work and sleep.
[00:10:07] MATT: Yes. And. We had so much fatigue.
[00:10:10] FAWN: So much fatigue because there's no village. We were doing everything ourselves. Nobody there.
[00:10:16] MATT: Not, unlike when you're bike riding and you get tired, all of a sudden I can descend so fast because it's too much effort to slow down.
[00:10:24] MATT: Mm-hmm. And my fear is gone because I'm just tired. So again, my fear would be gone because I'd be fatigued. And so I was
[00:10:31] FAWN: bold. So you guys, well back to the market, we would just, We were kind of giddy, like from being tired, and also we were like nuts to this. Like we can't make any friends, no one's talking.
[00:10:45] FAWN: Like we can't invite over anyone to save our lives over for like a dinner. You know, like, it was weird. So anyway, we started just laughing to each other at the store and everything seemed funny. Everything is funny when you're tired. Yes. Like remember, like we would see a box of crackers and it had an absurd name and we would just stand there howling with laughter.
[00:11:07] FAWN: Right. And taking pictures of it. Yep. And so, and then we would like, like Matt would start. It's like you would start talking with a different accent sometimes and treating me like, uh, your wife, like woman, where's my papa for dinner? You know, like he would start talking crazy like that.
[00:11:30] MATT: And again, I was bold, but again, and that's
[00:11:32] FAWN: when the woman was like, she was looking around.
[00:11:35] FAWN: She kept staring at us. Mm-hmm. People often stared at us though because Yes, we were inter interracial couple and that was not really in that area. Right. Very much. But anyway, so she finally came up to us and asked if this was a reality show. And you said Yes, why? Yes it is. And she was like, I, did you tell her there was a camera and like somewhere she started
[00:11:58] MATT: looking?
[00:11:58] MATT: But anyways, yes, indeed I did. So now the next rule of improv is almost in contradiction to this last one, which is funny, but it is one of the rules of improv and it is something to keep in mind. You know, I was just being loud and obnoxious. What I wasn't doing was I wasn't trying to do the funny. Mm-hmm.
[00:12:21] MATT: Okay. Now, the rule of improv is actually don't be funny, be vulnerable. And I think that's a much better thing for relationship management. We were just clowning, we were hardcore clowning at that point. I think more importantly for friendship is, be vulnerable. Be genuine. Don't be funny, don't go for the easy laugh.
[00:12:40] MATT: Don't go for the laugh at all. Just go for the trying to manage the absurdity on some level. Mm-hmm. And again, because everyone is a supporting actor, everybody's gonna be trying to make sure you succeed. And so in a friendship, you're trying to make sure your friends succeed, and guess what?
[00:12:59] MATT: Your friend is trying to do the same thing.
[00:13:02] FAWN: Hopefully, hopefully, you
[00:13:04] MATT: know, but that's just it. That's the quote, unquote rules of improv. So like, with my friends, it's like, oh my God. I had a Zoom chat with a buddy of mine and we're both programmers, we're both programmers and he's been doing it longer than me, and we just started riffing on how absolutely stupid we are as programmers, like how we write such terrible code.
[00:13:34] MATT: We went back and forth on the subject for quite some time, and this is very, very serious on some level because I felt comfortable saying it to him. He felt comfortable saying it back to me. And we talked about the things we do to protect ourselves from our own stupidity, which leads us down the path of this is how you should be building software.
[00:13:53] MATT: And that was the real underlying conversation we were having, even though we were clowning.
[00:13:58] FAWN: Got it. But you are a phenomenal coder. You're a perfectionist. It's, it's, but you were talking in the industry how, but it's also how, almost like architects build some terrible things that I wanna have a show on architects, by the way, on how things are built to separate us.
[00:14:17] FAWN: Mm mm-hmm. And keep us far apart from one another. Right. And keep us from bananas, congregating, basically. Yes. And okay. Yes. And
[00:14:26] MATT: we are talking about the rules of improv. Okay. Yay.
[00:14:31] FAWN: Well, I just wanna put it out there that I don't, you are a perfectionist. You are a great coder. I just don't want anyone to think that you write bad
[00:14:37] MATT: code.
[00:14:38] MATT: The trick is, don't, is there's, there's a lot to it and we discuss the lot to it. But basically we have to understand that we're not one of the things you go through. Kind of in the middle and at the beginning of when you're a programmer is you think you know more than you do. Mm-hmm. And you eventually reach a level when you realize how little you know and how much you have to protect yourself from how little you know.
[00:15:02] MATT: And by protect yourself, I don't mean by hiding or anything else. It's about by, you know, creating unit tests and having people come through and make sure it's okay and all the rest of it. I know what you're trying to do, but.
[00:15:14] FAWN: Let's, I can say the same thing for photography for all of life,
[00:15:19] MATT: and that's just it.
[00:15:20] MATT: Great photographers back in the day, were they great photographers or were they good photographers with great printers, or were they great photographers with good printers, but there was never, it was still a multiple, it was still different aspects involved to make them that way, but
[00:15:35] FAWN: it's never about the camera.
[00:15:37] FAWN: It's never about, The machine, it's about emotion. Like, so now I'm getting into doing voiceover work, right? Mm-hmm. It's not about your voice, it's about emotion, right? Photography, back then, it was about instinct and it was about conveying an emotion. It didn't matter if you had the Hasselblad or some terrible camera, doesn't matter.
[00:16:04] MATT: Which actually, yes, and that takes us to the last rule of improv. There are no mistakes when you're doing an improv performance, when you're having a conversation with a friend. When you're in that spirit, there are no mistakes. 'cause guess what?
[00:16:23] MATT: You're being vulnerable, which is good. Everyone is a supporting actor, so you know that even if you quote unquote make a mistake, somebody's gonna be trying to help you out. And so you can be bold rather than cautious as you constantly say yes. And instead of, yes, but, and those are the five rules of improv as applied to relationships.
[00:16:43] FAWN: I never thought about putting those together, but.
Marker
[00:16:46] FAWN: It is what we've been talking about for over three and a half years now on this show Truth, but now we're bringing the word improv into it. We've talked about it as being a good host or how to maneuver using martial arts in friendship and communication.
[00:17:04] FAWN: You know, it's all the same. It's the same message.
[00:17:06] MATT: And this is where I started, you know? That's great. I love it. Can, can you believe that you've been pattern patterning your life
[00:17:12] FAWN: after, so we can be great improv artists and that's what you have to be. That's what would, that's life. You get to be that, to be a good friend.
[00:17:24] FAWN: So the rules of improv, like the, the what, what I, what I know is you always say yes and. That relieves you of any conflict really. Maybe. I mean, it gets you closer.
[00:17:37] MATT: It allows you to build good stuff.
[00:17:38] FAWN: Yeah, it does. It does. You always make your partner or partners look good. Everyone's a
[00:17:43] MATT: supporting
[00:17:44] FAWN: actor, and you should understand your role in the scene.
[00:17:48] FAWN: What is your role in this situation, in your friendship in the world? What's your role in the world? Knowing who you are.
[00:17:54] FAWN: Be
[00:17:54] MATT: bold. Bold.
[00:17:54] FAWN: What is your role? And there's, you can never make a mistake.
[00:17:58] FAWN: There are
[00:17:58] MATT: no mistakes.
[00:17:59] FAWN: You know, sometimes I'll say something, I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have said that and I shouldn't have said that.
[00:18:04] FAWN: I shouldn't have done that. Oh my God. And then, once in a while I'll have a very cool friend who would say, you may feel that way, but everything is done in divine order. Or everything happens for a reason. Or it may not seem to you that that was okay, but. It was okay because no matter what, it's going to turn out okay.
[00:18:26] FAWN: There are no mistakes. Perhaps you were meant to say what you were meant to say or do it leads to a benefit. You may not see it, but it's of benefit. So don't worry about it. There are no mistakes. And, can I add something to this?
[00:18:42] MATT: You can, yes. And whatever you wish.
[00:18:45] FAWN: Well, oh, another thing is like you always agree with whatever your partner has created.
[00:18:51] FAWN: I guess it's, it's kind of reiterating what we said. You should always agree with what they're saying or with what they've created and add to it. Right? Exactly. Yes. And so again, it also goes back to Aikido because you don't meet force with force. You go on their path.
[00:19:10] MATT: And extend their energy out.
[00:19:12] FAWN: And extend their energy, which could cause them to fall. Or you go in your merry way together and you come to a realization of like, huh, okay. Like it's dissipated. What's dissipated is the conflict is dissipated. Right? Uh, okay. So I wanna go the opposite way of seven deadly sins of improv,
[00:19:35] FAWN: Blocking, negating the ideas and suggestions of others or yourself . Two: wimping. I, I actually looked this up 'cause I cheated 'cause I knew you were gonna talk about improv, so I'm like, huh? What are the seven things not to do? Why are you looking at me like that?
[00:19:51] MATT: No, no reason.
[00:19:52] FAWN: Are you mad at me? No. Okay. So blocking. Basically negating ideas. Two wimping, they call it refusing to give information. Not opening up, not letting people know who you are, what you're about, right. Not giving any information.
[00:20:09] MATT: Right. I I can't play off it if you're not giving me anything.
[00:20:14] FAWN: To be honest, I've been wimping on one of our friends because they don't trust her anymore. So when she asked about my life, I don't, I don't say anything because I feel like this person gets jealous and sends me negative vibes and I can't have it when I'm trying to build something new. Right. So I don't talk about it.
[00:20:34] MATT: So maybe it's not a good idea to have this person in your
[00:20:36] FAWN: circle. Exactly. So blocking wimping, and then there's something they call pimping. Trying to get others to give all the ideas. Ah, yes. So you, you just have them with basically, do we know people like this? I work with a guy like this. Well, I mean, your family's like that.
[00:20:56] FAWN: Yes. Do they offer anything new? Except
[00:20:58] MATT: my family is like worse because they don't want your ideas. They just want everything to be the same. Reasonably pleasant and the same.
[00:21:10] FAWN: Right. That's true. Pimping is trying to get others to give all the ideas. Then the next thing they call is gagging, which means making gags at the expense of the scene.
[00:21:24] FAWN: Right. Don't be funny, like, yeah, exactly what you said. The other one is hedging, avoiding being specific. Politicians do this, they ask them a question. You think they're going to answer it? And they've spoken for like 30 minutes. Still have not answered your
[00:21:40] MATT: question. Right, right. Yeah. I watched a brilliant one where they're like, Hey, what do you think of this person for this role?
[00:21:47] MATT: And they're like, well, we really need to consider what that role really needs. Oh my God. And then 20 minutes later, it still hasn't
[00:21:53] FAWN: answered. Wasting my time. Okay, so the next one is called Bridging, where you're just avoiding doing something. Just get to the point and say it basically. Right. So that's when you don't do that.
[00:22:05] FAWN: And then the last one is canceling. Removing an idea that's been established. Just like, oh, you know, this thing is bothering you. Well just get over it. It's gone. Bye. Oh my God. Like when you almost died. I'm sorry to keep bringing this up, man, my Lord. But I needed to talk about it. And it was fresh. It was like right after it happened.
[00:22:30] FAWN: The same friend I'm telling you about. Every time I talk to her, she's like, so how are you? And I would start crying. I'm like, I am not doing well. And she's like, well, it didn't happen. He didn't die. It's okay. So, um, what are you making for dinner today? I'm like, oh, she just cancels what I'm feeling. I feel like, I don't know if that's a good example, but removing an idea that's been established, like this is happening in my life.
[00:22:56] FAWN: Don't pretend it's not there or don't just shove it away. We need to discuss things. We need to, we need to help each other through things. Anyway, so that's it. Those are the seven deadly sins of improv. Fair enough. Are you mad at me? 'cause I looked it up. No, I feel bad now. I can like a cheated. You did. I did cheat, huh?
[00:23:20] MATT: Yes. And. That's all I've got.
[00:23:26] FAWN: Okay. Can we make it a short one today? Is that cool? It's done. Alright. Talk to you guys in just a few days. We love you. Thanks for listening. Be well. Okay. Talk to you later. Bye bye-Bye.
