How to Tell What Kind of Friendship You have

There are three types of friends. There are those people who are friends with you because they get stuff from you. There are those people who are friends with you because of the way you make them feel. And there are the people who just love you. Okay. Those would be the three types of friends and obviously, we would love and if every single one of our friends was quote-unquote type three, who loves us, just cuz.
So how do we figure this out?

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How to Tell What Kind of Friend You Have - TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Fawn: Enjoying your coffee?

[00:00:06] Matt: Maybe a little.

[00:00:07] Fawn: Hi, good morning. Good morning over here, where we are right now. Good evening. Good afternoon. And hello everyone. How are you? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Ah, welcome back everybody. So, how do you know, how do you know, what kind of friend you have, Matt??

[00:00:26] Matt: How do you know? Well, first,

[00:00:28] Fawn: well, first of all, Matt always has a way to spot things out immediately. And then when you ask and then he'll like tell you the most messed up stuff about someone that you think, well, I think is okay, cause I have this Disney or Pollyanna version of the world. And then he'll whisper to me later.

How this person is

[00:00:51] Matt: no good.

Uh, sometimes, sometimes not,

[00:00:54] Fawn: well,

some, well, I'm just saying like the times I've been totally shocked by your assessment within a few seconds. And the weird thing is you're right. How do you do it? And then when I ask you for advice, you never have anything for

me,

[00:01:08] Matt: it's unique to each situation or each person, but you know what, back it up.

Let's describe the three types of friends. Shall we? Okay.

[00:01:17] Fawn: Do you want me to do it?

[00:01:18] Matt: Of course I want you to,

[00:01:19] Fawn: do you know what? You all have been calling me the mouth. Cause like, apparently I talk way more than you on the podcast. So why don't you describe it for once? Go ahead.

[00:01:30] Matt: Aristotle. Nicomachean

ethics

[00:01:32] Fawn: Nicomachean

[00:01:36] Matt: yes. The mouth. Anyways describes three types of friends. There are those people who are friends with you because they get stuff from you. There are those people who are friends with you because of the way you make them feel. And there are the people who just love you. Okay. Those would be the three types of friends and obviously we would love

and if every single one of our friends was quote unquote type three, who loves us, just cuz. Right.

[00:02:09] Fawn: Uh, yeah.

[00:02:10] Matt: Yeah.

[00:02:10] Fawn: That's how I think everybody is until I get a big slap in the face.

[00:02:14] Matt: So how do we figure this out?

[00:02:16] Fawn: How do you do it, Matt?

[00:02:18] Matt: Well, first of all, I, unlike yourself, I dip my pinky toe in the water. Now, what do you do?

[00:02:27] Fawn: I jump right in

[00:02:29] Matt: you jump right in. Yeah,

[00:02:30] Fawn: I welcome. You. I'm like, where the hell have you been???? YAY!!!!

[00:02:35] Matt: Exactly. Now do you remember Sturgeon's law?

[00:02:40] Fawn: That's terrible.

[00:02:41] Matt: Duh, do you remember Sturgeon's law?

[00:02:43] Fawn: Yeah.

You bring it up all the time. We had our

[00:02:45] Matt: Theodore Sturgeon science fiction, author Sturgeon's law and okay. It's not really a law,

It's a theory it's whatever you want to call it. But he says that 90% of anything is terrible. Wow. That's a very depressing way to look at the world. Isn't it?

[00:03:00] Fawn: That is

a terrible, terrible view of the world.

[00:03:03] Matt: But start thinking

it through,

[00:03:05] Fawn: but you know what, when I'm mad, I'm like, yeah, that's true. But when I'm feeling better, I'm like, that's a terrible, terrible thing to say.

[00:03:13] Matt: It is flipping terrible. I'm not going to argue that,

[00:03:16] Fawn: but things wrong with Sturgeon for him to

say that?

[00:03:19] Matt: Sturgeon was again a studier of human nature.

[00:03:22] Fawn: How, how did he study human nature? What did he do?

[00:03:25] Matt: He might've been a psychologist. I'm not

sure.

[00:03:28] Fawn: So he just said that 90% of everything is crap

[00:03:33] Matt: of anything is crap, not everything, but anything.

So fill in the blanks.

[00:03:38] Fawn: That's terrible.

[00:03:39] Matt: Well, he was also talking about it from his personal experience and his personal knowledge, because hold on, hold on, hold on. The music I listen to, 90% of the world would say it was terrible. They just would. And if you think about it, it's like, okay, fine. You love classical music.

You hate classical music. , for any given person, I would say 90% of the music that's out there to them is going to be crap. So it becomes a much more personal thing. Okay. For starters.

[00:04:14] Fawn: Okay.

[00:04:15] Matt: But it's hard to extricate yourself from the situation. Like, I'm not going to tell you that, I don't know, picking something around Sawyer Brown country, country, Western music, although country Western fans might not say that because they're a little poppy, you know, I understand objectively that they're a good band.

I would never listen to them. And I would, I personally would never quantify them as being good because it's not my style of

music.

[00:04:43] Fawn: Yeah. But you wouldn't go around labeling that as terrible. Or bad. Oh Lord. Okay.

[00:04:50] Matt: Okay. Objectives. I understand

[00:04:53] Fawn: this spoken from a true heavy metal guy. You are so snobby about music,

[00:05:01] Matt: honestly, for five seconds, there was a song called something like, um, "Some Girls Do" I've thought had a catchy beat.

[00:05:09] Fawn: Wow that

[00:05:12] Matt: for five seconds.

But I mean, there, there are some glaring exceptions in, uh, the music I

[00:05:19] Fawn: listen, you don't want to listen to anything that you like, or even movies, even you ruin for me. Like you don't want to be sitting next to Matt because he'll constantly the words out of your mouth is what does this dribble about? (Matt is laughing)

Everything I love. It's really crazy sad. It makes me crazy. Let me enjoy my stuff.

[00:05:43] Matt: So

anyways, back to how we figure this out. First of all, me personally, I dip my pinky toe in. Okay. Like, okay. We were, I know your name. Okay. It's kind of a first that's, that's kind of the usual first step. And then we have a little banter and then we figure out that, you know, it's it's, to me, it's about gates and gatekeepers.

So there's a gate that says, okay, do we want to, exchange information or something? Right? I mean, in a way, friends is like dating and we've we talk about this.

[00:06:19] Fawn: That's how we started.

[00:06:20] Matt: So,

However dating, usually infers there's a first date so you don't get to, you don't necessarily do this acquaintance

thing.

[00:06:29] Fawn: Can I just interject? So if you want to hear about how we started go back to the very, very first episode, the very first one called "The Mentor". It's just me talking, "The Mouth" again, but I was just, I was just trying to explain what we're going to be talking about on this podcast. So the very first episode called the mentor.

That's me talk. I'm not that I'm the mentor, but I tell you who the mentor was as inspiration for this friendship movement that we began. And really it was because out of frustration, we lived on Bainbridge Island, Washington state, and you know, before we got there, we had no trouble making friends. We made friends, like family type friends, wherever we went and all of a sudden it wasn't happening.

And so we blamed ourselves for the longest time, for whatever reasons like, okay, well maybe because we're new, maybe because we're married, maybe because. Maybe, because that's the culture here in Washington state and we don't understand it. Maybe we're offending people, maybe

[00:07:37] Matt: no, there's no, maybe to the offending.

I'm sure we did offend people, but that's beside the point,

[00:07:41] Fawn: we didn't have lots of laughs at the grocery stores, um, going in there together. Like one of the big maybes was maybe because um, later on when we became, when I became pregnant and we have Elle, we thought, well, maybe because we're parents now, maybe that's why, but we started to really look around and then we worked, worked really worked on developing new friendships.

And it wasn't happening. We couldn't even invite someone to come over for a nice, beautiful dinner to save our lives. Like it was nuts. And so one day we're walking. We took walks every day, really pretty on Bainbridge island. The culture I got to tell you guys when we lived there, I don't know if it's changed, but it was not pretty; the culture

I mean, uh, But it led us to saying what is going on here? And I said to you, oh my goodness. It's like dating all over again, but this time to find a friend, like I thought it was hard to find. If you think there's just one true love for you, or maybe there's more than one, but you're trying to find that person, you think that's hard?.

I traveled. I, as a photographer, I was always traveling. I was always looking for my love. And then here we were, I'm like, this is even harder. What is happening? And then it led us to do lots of introspection, but also it led us to really talking to a whole bunch of people, looking at other countries, looking at what's really going on in society.

And that's when we realized, wow, there's something deeper happening in our society. So anyway, that's what Matt is looking at as what? Stop it. Well, I just wanted to give context because I don't know what you've listened to. So I don't know that I have to give you some, some background.

[00:09:42] Matt: Yeah. But we're talking

like, once you've made that initial connection, it's you you'd need to almost treat it like it's a first date and you need to, in my mind, you need to establish the quote-unquote rules, the groundwork, and you want to make your

communications at this point, explicit. And for me, this is the real key: slow.

[00:10:02] Fawn: I don't do slow,

I can't, it's not in me, nothing about me is slow. Well, nevermind. Don't get any wrong ideas. I don't know. It depends how cute. Okay. Hey. Hey. Hey. Calm down. All right. So what I'm saying is, you know, I move fast, you know, I get an idea I'm on it. You, God knows how our marriage is working (Matt is laughing). I swear sometimes Matt, I get so angry with Matt, like so angry and distraught because I'm, I, I have a different beat.

I have a completely different beat than you, Matt. I like to move on an idea immediately. I like to just, if we're going to move I'm military, I pack up our stuff in 24 hours ready to go. You're like, it'll take you years. Cause you're pontificating and you're, I don't know what you're doing, honestly, but like for us to like work together and to dance together, it's quite a feat.

Anyway, so you're slow go ahead.

[00:11:12] Matt: (Matt is laughing) So that's how you leave it to me. Fair enough. Fair enough. Can't argue that fact slow, but deliberate. Okay. And it's about feeling the give and take the ebb and the flow of it to me. And, you know, I think that to build a good friendship or a great friendship just takes time, takes events.

But again, it all means moving slow, because guess what? I think all friendships start out in that, I'm friends with you because you make me feel good about myself or, um, you make me feel good period, or I'm getting something from you. Yes.

[00:11:52] Fawn: Come on.

[00:11:53] Matt: When that becomes a two way street,

[00:11:56] Fawn: I don't come at it.

Like I, that's why he jumped in because I, I genuinely look at everyone as a movie and like, they're the star of a movie and I'm intrigued. I never think about what can I get from this person? How do I feel about it? I'm like, look at this. And I think that the photographer and me that's, that's how it happens because I immediately start noticing things

[00:12:22] Matt: right.

[00:12:23] Fawn: And vibes, and it has nothing to do with me. I'm just like in love with what I'm looking at.

[00:12:29] Matt: I completely get it. Take it to that next level. I'm not looking at you to see what I can get from you, but if you offer something to me that shows me that you want to deepen the friendship. If you say something like if you pay me a compliment or, you know, whatever, again, deepening your, you, you want this, uh, I call it an acquaintance.

You want our acquaintanceship to grow to a friendship and it's a very deliberate dance as far as I'm concerned in the same way that dating is a very deliberate dance, for me at least.

Oh, she's just looking at me folks.

[00:13:08] Fawn: Well, I. And I guess that's how we got

together.

[00:13:14] Matt: And it's about then for me personally, I mean, I'm very analytic. God help me about the whole thing, but you know, I'll literally replay, I replay conversations I have with people during the day and I'm like, did I come across?

How did I come across? How did I not come across? Because I've, it's been pointed out that sometimes I'm inelegant in my speech.

[00:13:33] Fawn: Well, you are sometimes when you're deep in coding and you're working, working working, the way, your tone. And you'll never, you never believe me when I say you have a tone right now, I don't like your tone.

Then we got into a fight because you totally say, no, I do not have a tone. I'm like, you can't hear your own tone. So we get into a fight about it. And it never gets resolved actually, because you refuse to admit that you have a tone and happens because when you're so in your head, And you are saying something that genuinely is a nice thing, or it's a neutral thing, even it comes across so bad.

It's it's bad.

[00:14:19] Matt: So anyways, it's about replaying. It's about understanding. I mean, um, one of my really good friends, we initially, became friends because he was showing me things on the computer. And very cool stuff. And this was my friend, Chris. I want to say that my initial friendship Steeny you know, he made me feel good.

I mean, he complimented me all the time and he holds me in very high self-esteem, which is extremely cool. Cause he is a very cool guy too. So there's that it became mutual, but it didn't necessarily start there, but it's about baby steps in it's about having an understanding and it's, for me also, if I feel like I'm giving more in a friendship than I'm getting, and this is in the early acquaintance stages here, folks, you know, I really take a hard look at that.

If I'm constantly every three weeks pinging you saying, Hey, how's it going? You know, at some point I understand that it's not a two-way street. It's a one-way street. And if that's the case, then, we're moving further away from a deep

[00:15:24] Fawn: friendship,

I guess, both ways work because I jump in there and I get hurt a lot because I assume everybody's my best friend.

And I realized later that, wow, I had a completely different viewpoint. I had a completely existence in that relationship.

[00:15:44] Matt: Right.

[00:15:45] Fawn: Than they did.

[00:15:45] Matt: Right.

[00:15:46] Fawn: And when I find myself getting so tired or like, so constantly disappointed, or I'm waiting for something good to happen, like I'm waiting for them to have a good response in return to me, or, you know what I'm saying?

Well, I don't know what I'm saying, actually. I don't know how to say it when I'm constantly waiting for them to be an above and beyond family type of friend. And that doesn't happen over and over and over again.

[00:16:16] Matt: Right.

[00:16:17] Fawn: I get so sad. And then I have to come to terms, you know, come to my whatever moment it is,

you want to call it and realize, okay, it was a number one friend was a number two friend. I was their number three.

Right.

And do I want to continue the friendship?

[00:16:37] Matt: Right.

[00:16:37] Fawn: And usually I get to a point where I'm so hurt that I'm out.

[00:16:44] Matt: Right? Exactly. And, and bear in mind folks that, you know, I think I started as a jump in plunge and I didn't even think about it.

And, you know, I managed to get everything shredded when I was in like 7th grade

[00:17:01] Fawn: wow. So after all these years I'm still going, I was still holding the torch.

[00:17:05] Matt: Yep.

I got burned once I'm done.

[00:17:07] Fawn: wow

[00:17:08] Matt: I know it's twisted, isn't it?

[00:17:11] Fawn: Or is it me that's twisted? I'm like still going. I think, I dunno.

[00:17:18] Matt: It's it's not that I don't have the capacity and it's not that I don't have the desire to have type three friends.

And I'm in the process of developing a new type three friend, frankly, right now. But it's, it's a slow deliberate process in the same way our dating was a very slow and deliberate process.

[00:17:36] Fawn: Well,

because I had no idea what was happening.

[00:17:38] Matt: Exactly.

[00:17:39] Fawn: I had given up on love. I was just trying to learn some martial arts and.

Thrust into this other whole world of like this other school (Matt and Fawn make a high pitched agreement humming sound).

[00:17:52] Matt: I can't do it in my mind. That's what I wanted to say.

[00:17:57] Fawn: See, you didn't do your vocal exercises this morning and you're drinking coffee. You're not supposed to drink coffee when you're doing voice stuff.

[00:18:05] Matt: (Matt clears his voice and speaks very deeply) I see.

[00:18:08] Fawn: Oh my God. So I forgot what we were saying.

Oh, it worked because I had no idea what was happening.

[00:18:14] Matt: Right.

[00:18:15] Fawn: Everyone knew that we were getting together, but me! (Fawn and Matt start laughing) and then I ended up with, I ended up with one of my best friends, this gorgeous guy that I had been friends with for a long time. And then when things went to the next, next level, I remember telling Sarah. She was driving.

And I told Sarah what happened. And she immediately said, don't tell Matt. I'm like why, what, what? Huh. And she got quiet because she realized, oh, she said something she shouldn't have, you know, like she let it out of the bag.

[00:18:51] Matt: And

that is the, that is the danger. And there's no danger with that with friends because you can have a kajillion friends.

Life is good.

[00:18:58] Fawn: Wait, what's the danger?

[00:19:00] Matt: Well that, you know, in the, in the dating context, perhaps not the smartest move, although it was my move.

[00:19:05] Fawn: What moved to like take

it slow forever?

[00:19:06] Matt: take it slow forever. Exactly. And by the way forever was what was it? Six months?

[00:19:14] Fawn: Um, like I said, I, I, I don't move slowly. I feel like I have so much to do in life.

I don't have time. So, I mean, I have time for everyone mostly, but I don't have time to like deliberately slow things down. I have things to do. I want to see things. I want to do things in world and if you're not on board with me then, okay. But I'm here to let you know exactly who I am in the instant you meet me.

And if you're on board, let's go. You want to like, go on this adventure with me great, let's go. Do you know what I mean? And most people do. And then I realized, oh, they don't have the stamina. Right.

You know what I mean?

[00:19:57] Matt: Like they just wanted to be whisked along. They didn't want to actually actively participate.

[00:20:03] Fawn: Exactly.

[00:20:05] Matt: And

that's the trick and, and it, to me again, ebb and flow, you know, it's one of those things, you know, you've, you've got to get close to as good as you give.

[00:20:18] Fawn: So what is your advice to me?

[00:20:21] Matt: Slow down.

[00:20:23] Fawn: No, what's another.

[00:20:25] Matt: Oh, wait. Oh, cut that out. I started singing a song.

[00:20:29] Fawn: Besides that, give me some other bit of advice.

Okay. Yeah.

[00:20:32] Matt: Then you start getting Mackie. It's almost see, then you run in, you start getting into the difficulty of it becoming almost Machiavellian, what you're doing, which means like, in my mind, at least very sinister, very underhanded, because you really look for opportunities for, you know, this person to show you how they're being your friend, as opposed to letting them reveal themselves, which is what I let them do, which takes time.

[00:20:58] Fawn: Okay, so what am I doing again?

Slowing down.

No, no, what am I actually doing?

[00:21:03] Matt: Slowing down.

[00:21:04] Fawn: I'm not slowing

down though.

[00:21:06] Matt: Well, then.

[00:21:08] Fawn: What am I doing? I'm just quick. What you just described? I got lost. Cause I got lost in the word you

used

[00:21:18] Matt: Machiavelli Machiavellian or Machiavellian after Nikola Machiavelli, the author of "The Prince". Like mastermind of political savagery, basically

from Venice.

[00:21:29] Fawn: Give me more background. What is, what's the theory there

again?

[00:21:33] Matt: It's just, you be very deliberate and you know, you'd literally almost keep a tally of what they've done for you and what you've done for them.

Oh, like

[00:21:42] Fawn: Sheldon Cooper from "The Big Bang Theory"

[00:21:45] Matt: and I, I, that's not a place I want to live. I just, I want things to reveal themselves. And, but I'm going to be careful, like if I've like hipped you to like three or four really cool things, you know, , give and take, and maybe you don't know any cool stuff and, and I'll understand that and we'll get, you know, we'll move over that or through that, but you have to make yourself vulnerable too

[00:22:08] Fawn: do you think something is wrong with me that do you think I'm not as pure of heart?

When, so I have noticed this with a couple of friends that I've had to let go of the past couple of months. Like two of them. I noticed that I noticed that I was, I felt, I felt, I'm sure they have their own perspective, but I felt like I was constantly offering cool new things or like offering them things.

[00:22:33] Matt: Right.

[00:22:34] Fawn: And they were just quiet and then they would implement them

[00:22:37] Matt: right.

[00:22:38] Fawn: Without saying, oh my God, thank you. Like, I, this was inspiration from you, Fawn. I got nothing. Right. Do you know what I mean? And then I was feeling resentful because they were doing things that I was sharing with them that right. And because, because that, because of the fact that they didn't reciprocate my kind of love back to me, you know, my kind of friendship love, I started to get really annoyed when things started popping up

on their podcasts and on their businesses that was my idea that I was sharing with them. So then I got really, what's the word I'm not offended, but yes, I was offended

[00:23:26] Matt: jealous?

[00:23:28] Fawn: No, because I was doing it.

I just, I got really resentful.

[00:23:37] Matt: Yeah. And to me. This is one of the dangers we have in this kind of Facebook, well, edited lives everybody has, frankly, like nobody likes to talk about the suck, like when their lives suck, you know, and, and I'm as guilty as everyone else. Absolutely. Um, you know, for me personally, I got laid off two months ago.

Boom.

[00:24:02] Fawn: It was more than. Uh, and actually it feels like years. It

[00:24:07] Matt: was April 18th. Okay. But anyways, and, and this was right after, uh, like literally it was either a week or two weeks after my mom's funeral. Boom, boom. So yeah, that's the suck, but you know what? My friends knew all about it. My friends knew all about it.

Uh, my acquaintances ,depends, you know, it's because we don't like being, we don't like making ourselves vulnerable. Now, we're okay making ourselves vulnerable, if the other person makes themselves vulnerable too. But that's the problem is people rarely own up. People never own up to strangers their vulnerability unless like they have to.

[00:24:53] Fawn: I do.

[00:24:53] Matt: So, you know, if you're. Standing in line in the unemployment office, the guy next to you obviously is doing the same thing, right? So it's almost like it's okay to open up your vulnerabilities. And actually, you know, I've noticed on LinkedIn, people are saying that they're quote unquote, open to work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Cause there's been an interesting spat of layoffs in the tech sector. and that's a very strong thing. It's a very bold thing and that's something that should be applauded, but that's very rare.

[00:25:21] Fawn: I want to say, that's how normally I make friends is,I'm in a vulnerable state and I share it, but I'm not necessarily living there forever.

Um,

[00:25:35] Matt: and then you run into the alpha friend and the beta friend.

[00:25:38] Fawn: Oh, who think by the way that they're here to teach me stuff where in fact, I know a lot of stuff, but because I'm B I'm vulnerable, they think that I'm some dumb blond that doesn't know anything. Do you know what I'm saying? And then once again, I get resentful

and

[00:25:57] Matt: you're playing into again, contemporary power dynamics.

People feel comfortable in these high school style friendships, and I'm, I guess I'm playing to the high school style friendship. And you don't, you play to the adult friendship and most people aren't ready to deal with that.

[00:26:12] Fawn: I

don't know if I played to the adult friendship. I don't even know what that is, but I will say that, uh, I just have no time.

So if I'm vulnerable and you're standing there thinking I'm some dumb ass, you know what I'm saying? Because in that moment, I'm totally revealing to you that things are not so great for me, but I'm not living there. I'm not saying this is my entire life, this life forever, but I'm like, oh my God, this really sucks right now.

Right. You know what I'm saying? And if, if I see that the person holds me there forever or from that moment decides that they're the ones who are going to teach me something constantly and that they're surprised, or they ignore actually when they see that I've done or accomplished these things, whatever they may be, it doesn't matter.

They ignore it. Right. Because they're still in that, that mindset that they know better. That you're a know nothing. And that's when I know. Okay, this person is not my friend for me. Like, I don't want that kind of friend because that lets me know that they're not loving. They're not really seeing me. Right.

And I'm like, okay, thanks. So in my way, and my fast moving of friendship that's my way. I seriously, like I have big things to do on this planet. I don't have time to take it slow for you. You're going to have to jump in and unfortunately I will get hurt when I realize maybe you're not in it.

You're not in it to win it.

[00:27:48] Matt: And there you go. And that takes me to another interesting point I hadn't considered, which was not only that you make yourself vulnerable, but we also expect our friends, our type three friends, our friends who love us because they love us, those people should and do afford us the opportunity to evolve and grow.

And that's a big thing. Cause I think

[00:28:13] Fawn: That's a gem right there,

[00:28:14] Matt: I think that, um, I, I like to afford people the opportunity to, to grow and show me cool stuff and, show me next level and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think again, Sturgeon's law takes over. 90% of people have a hard time with that. And they don't understand how power dynamics change.

They don't understand how people necessarily change. Not necessarily even become brand new people, but , just. Go next level. And sometimes we get resentful because we feel like they're leaving us behind. Sometimes when we're the ones doing the growing, we look at them and we're like, but, but they're stuck exactly where they were before.

And again, there's tricky, uncomfortable dynamic, but I think if we truly love each other, then we're okay either way. We celebrate their successes, they celebrate ours. We maybe, and I would hope it's definitely, but we do what we can to push them to the next level because we just want them to do

well.

[00:29:15] Fawn: I have an example of that before we go. So the last few months I made a new friend, a treasure, like, like gold. Amazing. And she's that kind of person that doesn't judge. Well, I'm sure she judges. She was loving me, even though she misunderstood what I was. And luckily I was paying attention. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean about this?

So what had happened was she realized that I was vegan and that our whole family was vegan forever. And she didn't really understand the whole vegan concept

[00:29:52] Matt: because it's, it's, it's a weird one to grasp if you're on the standard American diet, for sure. Well,

[00:29:56] Fawn: yeah, it also depends. What, what kind of vibe you grew up with and where in the country you live, you know, that has something to do with it as well.

And also the stigma of being in Colorado, there are so many people that think that automatically everyone is on drugs. Everyone is high. So when my friend realized I was vegan, she, I noticed every time we talked about her food, she got very defensive. And I thought maybe she was thinking that I was one of those stand on a soap box, kind of vegan, like "meat is murder" kind of person.

And I'm like, wait a minute. I'm obviously not like that. So what is her deal? Like, why did she get so quiet when I talk about food or like wanting to share it with her, she was like, oh no, I don't do that. I'm like, you don't do that. Like, what do you mean you don't do that? You don't do broccoli. Like what, and what was going on

was she thought

(Matt starts laughing)

[00:30:55] Matt: that's right. I

remember now.

[00:30:57] Fawn: She thought that being vegan meant we put marijuana in all of our food. And so when I found that bit out, I started laughing so hard and I immediately told Elle and Alegra. They're like, wait a minute, so she thought that you would give your babies, like when they were infants marijuana?????

I'm like, yeah, I think she did.

But she was still willing to be my friend, because that was so like the whole marijuana culture is so against her her thing, you know, like it's just a no-no for her, but the fact that she was still willing to be my friend and totally there and like open and like loving I'm like, that's a good friend right there, even though there was a big misunderstanding.

Do you know what I mean? So anyway, we cleared it up.

[00:31:47] Matt: Lord and for the record folks, yeah. There's no marijuana consumption in this house.

[00:31:52] Fawn: I can't even, I can barely have a sip of coffee. Like I feel like, I feel like I just evaporate. Like I can't, I can't handle it. How in the world and you know, the fact that she thought and every meal they were like and everything, you know, and I'm not talking about, CBD, which doesn't get you high.

She thought it was like the THC stuff. You know how people cook with it now they're like huge gourmet areas where THC, they put that into everything. Oh my goodness. She thought that anyway, it's so far from us, you know, but anyway, but when that happen? I'm like, that's a good friend right there. She was still open-minded and

like in it, you know what I'm saying? Until somehow it came up and I'm like, oh my God, all this time, is that what you've been thinking? She's like, well, yeah. Well,

[00:32:50] Matt: yeah. Well, I mean, we remember, uh, Maya, Everybody was like, you're studying yoga. I guess that means you've turned against the church.

Both have interesting assumptions, but please take the time to confirm or, you know, your assumptions before you just, you know, block somebody out.

[00:33:09] Fawn: So funny to me, like all that stuff, you guys go back and listen to Maya Brauer. She is the head of the Yoga Alliance. We did a few interviews with her, but she was telling me, and I knew this too, from teaching yoga.

There are people who think that it is devil worshiping. If you're doing yoga, it's like against their religion. And so when she was doing, and she was talking to us about how her family had to do an intervention, because they felt like she was going to the dark side because she was practicing yoga. Anyway, so, yeah.

All right. How do we wrap this up into a little bow?

[00:33:48] Matt: Take it slow folks. Take it slow.

[00:33:50] Fawn: Or not... (Fawn and Matt start laughing),

[00:33:54] Matt: but take moments to evaluate and really try and gain a good understanding of what your given, what you're getting. And not that it needs to always be in balance because there are times that your friends need you. And there are times that you need your friends. I mean, that's life, but you know, if you notice that you're rushing in to deepen the friendship and they're standoffish, then maybe there's a reason for that.

[00:34:22] Fawn: Or you can play like me, just go wild and just see what happens. You know, life it's meant to be lived and experienced. Just, um, just, just keep the Nicomachean rule of three in mind while you're doing it. All right. We're going to go. We have a lot to take care of around here guys. Oh, dear. Wish us luck. We're trying to find where we belong on the planet.

All right. Thank you. Go to the website. There's a workbook there for you. A no-nonsense guide called "The Ikigai of Friendship - A Workbook" that's there waiting for you, our friendly world podcast.com. Thanks again for listening

guys, love you. Talk to you later. Bye. Bye.

How to Tell What Kind of Friend You Have [00:00:00] Fawn: Enjoying your coffee? [00:00:06] Matt: Maybe a little. [00:00:07] Fawn: Hi, good morning. Good morning over here, where we are right now. Good evening. Good afternoon. And hello everyone. How are you? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Ah, welcome back everybody. So, how do you know, how do you know, what kind of friend you have, Matt?? [00:00:26] Matt: How do you know? Well, first, [00:00:28] Fawn: well, first of all, Matt always has a way to spot things out immediately. And then when you ask and then he'll like tell you the most messed up stuff about someone that you think, well, I think is okay, cause I have this Disney or Pollyanna version of the world. And then he'll whisper to me later. How this person is [00:00:51] Matt: no good. Uh, sometimes, sometimes not, [00:00:54] Fawn: well, some, well, I'm just saying like the times I've been totally shocked by your assessment within a few seconds. And the weird thing is you're right. How do you do it? And then when I ask you for advice, you never have anything for me, [00:01:08] Matt: it's unique to each situation or each person, but you know what, back it up. Let's describe the three types of friends. Shall we? Okay. [00:01:17] Fawn: Do you want me to do it? [00:01:18] Matt: Of course I want you to, [00:01:19] Fawn: do you know what? You all have been calling me the mouth. Cause like, apparently I talk way more than you on the podcast. So why don't you describe it for once? Go ahead. [00:01:30] Matt: Aristotle. Nicomachean ethics [00:01:32] Fawn: Nicomachean [00:01:36] Matt: yes. The mouth. Anyways describes three types of friends. There are those people who are friends with you because they get stuff from you. There are those people who are friends with you because of the way you make them feel. And there are the people who just love you. Okay. Those would be the three types of friends and obviously we would love and if every single one of our friends was quote unquote type three, who loves us, just cuz. Right. [00:02:09] Fawn: Uh, yeah. [00:02:10] Matt: Yeah. [00:02:10] Fawn: That's how I think everybody is until I get a big slap in the face. [00:02:14] Matt: So how do we figure this out? [00:02:16] Fawn: How do you do it, Matt? [00:02:18] Matt: Well, first of all, I, unlike yourself, I dip my pinky toe in the water. Now, what do you do? [00:02:27] Fawn: I jump right in [00:02:29] Matt: you jump right in. Yeah, [00:02:30] Fawn: I welcome. You. I'm like, where the hell have you been???? YAY!!!! [00:02:35] Matt: Exactly. Now do you remember Sturgeon's law? [00:02:40] Fawn: That's terrible. [00:02:41] Matt: Duh, do you remember Sturgeon's law? [00:02:43] Fawn: Yeah. You bring it up all the time. We had our [00:02:45] Matt: Theodore Sturgeon science fiction, author Sturgeon's law and okay. It's not really a law, It's a theory it's whatever you want to call it. But he says that 90% of anything is terrible. Wow. That's a very depressing way to look at the world. Isn't it? [00:03:00] Fawn: That is a terrible, terrible view of the world. [00:03:03] Matt: But start thinking it through, [00:03:05] Fawn: but you know what, when I'm mad, I'm like, yeah, that's true. But when I'm feeling better, I'm like, that's a terrible, terrible thing to say. [00:03:13] Matt: It is flipping terrible. I'm not going to argue that, [00:03:16] Fawn: but things wrong with Sturgeon for him to say that? [00:03:19] Matt: Sturgeon was again a studier of human nature. [00:03:22] Fawn: How, how did he study human nature? What did he do? [00:03:25] Matt: He might've been a psychologist. I'm not sure. [00:03:28] Fawn: So he just said that 90% of everything is crap [00:03:33] Matt: of anything is crap, not everything, but anything. So fill in the blanks. [00:03:38] Fawn: That's terrible. [00:03:39] Matt: Well, he was also talking about it from his personal experience and his personal knowledge, because hold on, hold on, hold on. The music I listen to, 90% of the world would say it was terrible. They just would. And if you think about it, it's like, okay, fine. You love classical music. You hate classical music. , for any given person, I would say 90% of the music that's out there to them is going to be crap. So it becomes a much more personal thing. Okay. For starters. [00:04:14] Fawn: Okay. [00:04:15] Matt: But it's hard to extricate yourself from the situation. Like, I'm not going to tell you that, I don't know, picking something around Sawyer Brown country, country, Western music, although country Western fans might not say that because they're a little poppy, you know, I understand objectively that they're a good band. I would never listen to them. And I would, I personally would never quantify them as being good because it's not my style of music. [00:04:43] Fawn: Yeah. But you wouldn't go around labeling that as terrible. Or bad. Oh Lord. Okay. [00:04:50] Matt: Okay. Objectives. I understand [00:04:53] Fawn: this spoken from a true heavy metal guy. You are so snobby about music, [00:05:01] Matt: honestly, for five seconds, there was a song called something like, um, "Some Girls Do" I've thought had a catchy beat. [00:05:09] Fawn: Wow that [00:05:12] Matt: for five seconds. But I mean, there, there are some glaring exceptions in, uh, the music I [00:05:19] Fawn: listen, you don't want to listen to anything that you like, or even movies, even you ruin for me. Like you don't want to be sitting next to Matt because he'll constantly the words out of your mouth is what does this dribble about? (Matt is laughing) Everything I love. It's really crazy sad. It makes me crazy. Let me enjoy my stuff. [00:05:43] Matt: So anyways, back to how we figure this out. First of all, me personally, I dip my pinky toe in. Okay. Like, okay. We were, I know your name. Okay. It's kind of a first that's, that's kind of the usual first step. And then we have a little banter and then we figure out that, you know, it's it's, to me, it's about gates and gatekeepers. So there's a gate that says, okay, do we want to, exchange information or something? Right? I mean, in a way, friends is like dating and we've we talk about this. [00:06:19] Fawn: That's how we started. [00:06:20] Matt: So, However dating, usually infers there's a first date so you don't get to, you don't necessarily do this acquaintance thing. [00:06:29] Fawn: Can I just interject? So if you want to hear about how we started go back to the very, very first episode, the very first one called "The Mentor". It's just me talking, "The Mouth" again, but I was just, I was just trying to explain what we're going to be talking about on this podcast. So the very first episode called the mentor. That's me talk. I'm not that I'm the mentor, but I tell you who the mentor was as inspiration for this friendship movement that we began. And really it was because out of frustration, we lived on Bainbridge Island, Washington state, and you know, before we got there, we had no trouble making friends. We made friends, like family type friends, wherever we went and all of a sudden it wasn't happening. And so we blamed ourselves for the longest time, for whatever reasons like, okay, well maybe because we're new, maybe because we're married, maybe because. Maybe, because that's the culture here in Washington state and we don't understand it. Maybe we're offending people, maybe [00:07:37] Matt: no, there's no, maybe to the offending. I'm sure we did offend people, but that's beside the point, [00:07:41] Fawn: we didn't have lots of laughs at the grocery stores, um, going in there together. Like one of the big maybes was maybe because um, later on when we became, when I became pregnant and we have Elle, we thought, well, maybe because we're parents now, maybe that's why, but we started to really look around and then we worked, worked really worked on developing new friendships. And it wasn't happening. We couldn't even invite someone to come over for a nice, beautiful dinner to save our lives. Like it was nuts. And so one day we're walking. We took walks every day, really pretty on Bainbridge island. The culture I got to tell you guys when we lived there, I don't know if it's changed, but it was not pretty; the culture I mean, uh, But it led us to saying what is going on here? And I said to you, oh my goodness. It's like dating all over again, but this time to find a friend, like I thought it was hard to find. If you think there's just one true love for you, or maybe there's more than one, but you're trying to find that person, you think that's hard?. I traveled. I, as a photographer, I was always traveling. I was always looking for my love. And then here we were, I'm like, this is even harder. What is happening? And then it led us to do lots of introspection, but also it led us to really talking to a whole bunch of people, looking at other countries, looking at what's really going on in society. And that's when we realized, wow, there's something deeper happening in our society. So anyway, that's what Matt is looking at as what? Stop it. Well, I just wanted to give context because I don't know what you've listened to. So I don't know that I have to give you some, some background. [00:09:42] Matt: Yeah. But we're talking like, once you've made that initial connection, it's you you'd need to almost treat it like it's a first date and you need to, in my mind, you need to establish the quote-unquote rules, the groundwork, and you want to make your communications at this point, explicit. And for me, this is the real key: slow. [00:10:02] Fawn: I don't do slow, I can't, it's not in me, nothing about me is slow. Well, nevermind. Don't get any wrong ideas. I don't know. It depends how cute. Okay. Hey. Hey. Hey. Calm down. All right. So what I'm saying is, you know, I move fast, you know, I get an idea I'm on it. You, God knows how our marriage is working (Matt is laughing). I swear sometimes Matt, I get so angry with Matt, like so angry and distraught because I'm, I, I have a different beat. I have a completely different beat than you, Matt. I like to move on an idea immediately. I like to just, if we're going to move I'm military, I pack up our stuff in 24 hours ready to go. You're like, it'll take you years. Cause you're pontificating and you're, I don't know what you're doing, honestly, but like for us to like work together and to dance together, it's quite a feat. Anyway, so you're slow go ahead. [00:11:12] Matt: (Matt is laughing) So that's how you leave it to me. Fair enough. Fair enough. Can't argue that fact slow, but deliberate. Okay. And it's about feeling the give and take the ebb and the flow of it to me. And, you know, I think that to build a good friendship or a great friendship just takes time, takes events. But again, it all means moving slow, because guess what? I think all friendships start out in that, I'm friends with you because you make me feel good about myself or, um, you make me feel good period, or I'm getting something from you. Yes. [00:11:52] Fawn: Come on. [00:11:53] Matt: When that becomes a two way street, [00:11:56] Fawn: I don't come at it. Like I, that's why he jumped in because I, I genuinely look at everyone as a movie and like, they're the star of a movie and I'm intrigued. I never think about what can I get from this person? How do I feel about it? I'm like, look at this. And I think that the photographer and me that's, that's how it happens because I immediately start noticing things [00:12:22] Matt: right. [00:12:23] Fawn: And vibes, and it has nothing to do with me. I'm just like in love with what I'm looking at. [00:12:29] Matt: I completely get it. Take it to that next level. I'm not looking at you to see what I can get from you, but if you offer something to me that shows me that you want to deepen the friendship. If you say something like if you pay me a compliment or, you know, whatever, again, deepening your, you, you want this, uh, I call it an acquaintance. You want our acquaintanceship to grow to a friendship and it's a very deliberate dance as far as I'm concerned in the same way that dating is a very deliberate dance, for me at least. Oh, she's just looking at me folks. [00:13:08] Fawn: Well, I. And I guess that's how we got together. [00:13:14] Matt: And it's about then for me personally, I mean, I'm very analytic. God help me about the whole thing, but you know, I'll literally replay, I replay conversations I have with people during the day and I'm like, did I come across? How did I come across? How did I not come across? Because I've, it's been pointed out that sometimes I'm inelegant in my speech. [00:13:33] Fawn: Well, you are sometimes when you're deep in coding and you're working, working working, the way, your tone. And you'll never, you never believe me when I say you have a tone right now, I don't like your tone. Then we got into a fight because you totally say, no, I do not have a tone. I'm like, you can't hear your own tone. So we get into a fight about it. And it never gets resolved actually, because you refuse to admit that you have a tone and happens because when you're so in your head, And you are saying something that genuinely is a nice thing, or it's a neutral thing, even it comes across so bad. It's it's bad. [00:14:19] Matt: So anyways, it's about replaying. It's about understanding. I mean, um, one of my really good friends, we initially, became friends because he was showing me things on the computer. And very cool stuff. And this was my friend, Chris. I want to say that my initial friendship Steeny you know, he made me feel good. I mean, he complimented me all the time and he holds me in very high self-esteem, which is extremely cool. Cause he is a very cool guy too. So there's that it became mutual, but it didn't necessarily start there, but it's about baby steps in it's about having an understanding and it's, for me also, if I feel like I'm giving more in a friendship than I'm getting, and this is in the early acquaintance stages here, folks, you know, I really take a hard look at that. If I'm constantly every three weeks pinging you saying, Hey, how's it going? You know, at some point I understand that it's not a two-way street. It's a one-way street. And if that's the case, then, we're moving further away from a deep [00:15:24] Fawn: friendship, I guess, both ways work because I jump in there and I get hurt a lot because I assume everybody's my best friend. And I realized later that, wow, I had a completely different viewpoint. I had a completely existence in that relationship. [00:15:44] Matt: Right. [00:15:45] Fawn: Than they did. [00:15:45] Matt: Right. [00:15:46] Fawn: And when I find myself getting so tired or like, so constantly disappointed, or I'm waiting for something good to happen, like I'm waiting for them to have a good response in return to me, or, you know what I'm saying? Well, I don't know what I'm saying, actually. I don't know how to say it when I'm constantly waiting for them to be an above and beyond family type of friend. And that doesn't happen over and over and over again. [00:16:16] Matt: Right. [00:16:17] Fawn: I get so sad. And then I have to come to terms, you know, come to my whatever moment it is, you want to call it and realize, okay, it was a number one friend was a number two friend. I was their number three. Right. And do I want to continue the friendship? [00:16:37] Matt: Right. [00:16:37] Fawn: And usually I get to a point where I'm so hurt that I'm out. [00:16:44] Matt: Right? Exactly. And, and bear in mind folks that, you know, I think I started as a jump in plunge and I didn't even think about it. And, you know, I managed to get everything shredded when I was in like 7th grade [00:17:01] Fawn: wow. So after all these years I'm still going, I was still holding the torch. [00:17:05] Matt: Yep. I got burned once I'm done. [00:17:07] Fawn: wow [00:17:08] Matt: I know it's twisted, isn't it? [00:17:11] Fawn: Or is it me that's twisted? I'm like still going. I think, I dunno. [00:17:18] Matt: It's it's not that I don't have the capacity and it's not that I don't have the desire to have type three friends. And I'm in the process of developing a new type three friend, frankly, right now. But it's, it's a slow deliberate process in the same way our dating was a very slow and deliberate process. [00:17:36] Fawn: Well, because I had no idea what was happening. [00:17:38] Matt: Exactly. [00:17:39] Fawn: I had given up on love. I was just trying to learn some martial arts and. Thrust into this other whole world of like this other school (Matt and Fawn make a high pitched agreement humming sound). [00:17:52] Matt: I can't do it in my mind. That's what I wanted to say. [00:17:57] Fawn: See, you didn't do your vocal exercises this morning and you're drinking coffee. You're not supposed to drink coffee when you're doing voice stuff. [00:18:05] Matt: (Matt clears his voice and speaks very deeply) I see. [00:18:08] Fawn: Oh my God. So I forgot what we were saying. Oh, it worked because I had no idea what was happening. [00:18:14] Matt: Right. [00:18:15] Fawn: Everyone knew that we were getting together, but me! (Fawn and Matt start laughing) and then I ended up with, I ended up with one of my best friends, this gorgeous guy that I had been friends with for a long time. And then when things went to the next, next level, I remember telling Sarah. She was driving. And I told Sarah what happened. And she immediately said, don't tell Matt. I'm like why, what, what? Huh. And she got quiet because she realized, oh, she said something she shouldn't have, you know, like she let it out of the bag. [00:18:51] Matt: And that is the, that is the danger. And there's no danger with that with friends because you can have a kajillion friends. Life is good. [00:18:58] Fawn: Wait, what's the danger? [00:19:00] Matt: Well that, you know, in the, in the dating context, perhaps not the smartest move, although it was my move. [00:19:05] Fawn: What moved to like take it slow forever? [00:19:06] Matt: take it slow forever. Exactly. And by the way forever was what was it? Six months? [00:19:14] Fawn: Um, like I said, I, I, I don't move slowly. I feel like I have so much to do in life. I don't have time. So, I mean, I have time for everyone mostly, but I don't have time to like deliberately slow things down. I have things to do. I want to see things. I want to do things in world and if you're not on board with me then, okay. But I'm here to let you know exactly who I am in the instant you meet me. And if you're on board, let's go. You want to like, go on this adventure with me great, let's go. Do you know what I mean? And most people do. And then I realized, oh, they don't have the stamina. Right. You know what I mean? [00:19:57] Matt: Like they just wanted to be whisked along. They didn't want to actually actively participate. [00:20:03] Fawn: Exactly. [00:20:05] Matt: And that's the trick and, and it, to me again, ebb and flow, you know, it's one of those things, you know, you've, you've got to get close to as good as you give. [00:20:18] Fawn: So what is your advice to me? [00:20:21] Matt: Slow down. [00:20:23] Fawn: No, what's another. [00:20:25] Matt: Oh, wait. Oh, cut that out. I started singing a song. [00:20:29] Fawn: Besides that, give me some other bit of advice. Okay. Yeah. [00:20:32] Matt: Then you start getting Mackie. It's almost see, then you run in, you start getting into the difficulty of it becoming almost Machiavellian, what you're doing, which means like, in my mind, at least very sinister, very underhanded, because you really look for opportunities for, you know, this person to show you how they're being your friend, as opposed to letting them reveal themselves, which is what I let them do, which takes time. [00:20:58] Fawn: Okay, so what am I doing again? Slowing down. No, no, what am I actually doing? [00:21:03] Matt: Slowing down. [00:21:04] Fawn: I'm not slowing down though. [00:21:06] Matt: Well, then. [00:21:08] Fawn: What am I doing? I'm just quick. What you just described? I got lost. Cause I got lost in the word you used [00:21:18] Matt: Machiavelli Machiavellian or Machiavellian after Nikola Machiavelli, the author of "The Prince". Like mastermind of political savagery, basically from Venice. [00:21:29] Fawn: Give me more background. What is, what's the theory there again? [00:21:33] Matt: It's just, you be very deliberate and you know, you'd literally almost keep a tally of what they've done for you and what you've done for them. Oh, like [00:21:42] Fawn: Sheldon Cooper from "The Big Bang Theory" [00:21:45] Matt: and I, I, that's not a place I want to live. I just, I want things to reveal themselves. And, but I'm going to be careful, like if I've like hipped you to like three or four really cool things, you know, , give and take, and maybe you don't know any cool stuff and, and I'll understand that and we'll get, you know, we'll move over that or through that, but you have to make yourself vulnerable too [00:22:08] Fawn: do you think something is wrong with me that do you think I'm not as pure of heart? When, so I have noticed this with a couple of friends that I've had to let go of the past couple of months. Like two of them. I noticed that I noticed that I was, I felt, I felt, I'm sure they have their own perspective, but I felt like I was constantly offering cool new things or like offering them things. [00:22:33] Matt: Right. [00:22:34] Fawn: And they were just quiet and then they would implement them [00:22:37] Matt: right. [00:22:38] Fawn: Without saying, oh my God, thank you. Like, I, this was inspiration from you, Fawn. I got nothing. Right. Do you know what I mean? And then I was feeling resentful because they were doing things that I was sharing with them that right. And because, because that, because of the fact that they didn't reciprocate my kind of love back to me, you know, my kind of friendship love, I started to get really annoyed when things started popping up on their podcasts and on their businesses that was my idea that I was sharing with them. So then I got really, what's the word I'm not offended, but yes, I was offended [00:23:26] Matt: jealous? [00:23:28] Fawn: No, because I was doing it. I just, I got really resentful. [00:23:37] Matt: Yeah. And to me. This is one of the dangers we have in this kind of Facebook, well, edited lives everybody has, frankly, like nobody likes to talk about the suck, like when their lives suck, you know, and, and I'm as guilty as everyone else. Absolutely. Um, you know, for me personally, I got laid off two months ago. Boom. [00:24:02] Fawn: It was more than. Uh, and actually it feels like years. It [00:24:07] Matt: was April 18th. Okay. But anyways, and, and this was right after, uh, like literally it was either a week or two weeks after my mom's funeral. Boom, boom. So yeah, that's the suck, but you know what? My friends knew all about it. My friends knew all about it. Uh, my acquaintances ,depends, you know, it's because we don't like being, we don't like making ourselves vulnerable. Now, we're okay making ourselves vulnerable, if the other person makes themselves vulnerable too. But that's the problem is people rarely own up. People never own up to strangers their vulnerability unless like they have to. [00:24:53] Fawn: I do. [00:24:53] Matt: So, you know, if you're. Standing in line in the unemployment office, the guy next to you obviously is doing the same thing, right? So it's almost like it's okay to open up your vulnerabilities. And actually, you know, I've noticed on LinkedIn, people are saying that they're quote unquote, open to work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Cause there's been an interesting spat of layoffs in the tech sector. and that's a very strong thing. It's a very bold thing and that's something that should be applauded, but that's very rare. [00:25:21] Fawn: I want to say, that's how normally I make friends is,I'm in a vulnerable state and I share it, but I'm not necessarily living there forever. Um, [00:25:35] Matt: and then you run into the alpha friend and the beta friend. [00:25:38] Fawn: Oh, who think by the way that they're here to teach me stuff where in fact, I know a lot of stuff, but because I'm B I'm vulnerable, they think that I'm some dumb blond that doesn't know anything. Do you know what I'm saying? And then once again, I get resentful and [00:25:57] Matt: you're playing into again, contemporary power dynamics. People feel comfortable in these high school style friendships, and I'm, I guess I'm playing to the high school style friendship. And you don't, you play to the adult friendship and most people aren't ready to deal with that. [00:26:12] Fawn: I don't know if I played to the adult friendship. I don't even know what that is, but I will say that, uh, I just have no time. So if I'm vulnerable and you're standing there thinking I'm some dumb ass, you know what I'm saying? Because in that moment, I'm totally revealing to you that things are not so great for me, but I'm not living there. I'm not saying this is my entire life, this life forever, but I'm like, oh my God, this really sucks right now. Right. You know what I'm saying? And if, if I see that the person holds me there forever or from that moment decides that they're the ones who are going to teach me something constantly and that they're surprised, or they ignore actually when they see that I've done or accomplished these things, whatever they may be, it doesn't matter. They ignore it. Right. Because they're still in that, that mindset that they know better. That you're a know nothing. And that's when I know. Okay, this person is not my friend for me. Like, I don't want that kind of friend because that lets me know that they're not loving. They're not really seeing me. Right. And I'm like, okay, thanks. So in my way, and my fast moving of friendship that's my way. I seriously, like I have big things to do on this planet. I don't have time to take it slow for you. You're going to have to jump in and unfortunately I will get hurt when I realize maybe you're not in it. You're not in it to win it. [00:27:48] Matt: And there you go. And that takes me to another interesting point I hadn't considered, which was not only that you make yourself vulnerable, but we also expect our friends, our type three friends, our friends who love us because they love us, those people should and do afford us the opportunity to evolve and grow. And that's a big thing. Cause I think [00:28:13] Fawn: That's a gem right there, [00:28:14] Matt: I think that, um, I, I like to afford people the opportunity to, to grow and show me cool stuff and, show me next level and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think again, Sturgeon's law takes over. 90% of people have a hard time with that. And they don't understand how power dynamics change. They don't understand how people necessarily change. Not necessarily even become brand new people, but , just. Go next level. And sometimes we get resentful because we feel like they're leaving us behind. Sometimes when we're the ones doing the growing, we look at them and we're like, but, but they're stuck exactly where they were before. And again, there's tricky, uncomfortable dynamic, but I think if we truly love each other, then we're okay either way. We celebrate their successes, they celebrate ours. We maybe, and I would hope it's definitely, but we do what we can to push them to the next level because we just want them to do well. [00:29:15] Fawn: I have an example of that before we go. So the last few months I made a new friend, a treasure, like, like gold. Amazing. And she's that kind of person that doesn't judge. Well, I'm sure she judges. She was loving me, even though she misunderstood what I was. And luckily I was paying attention. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean about this? So what had happened was she realized that I was vegan and that our whole family was vegan forever. And she didn't really understand the whole vegan concept [00:29:52] Matt: because it's, it's, it's a weird one to grasp if you're on the standard American diet, for sure. Well, [00:29:56] Fawn: yeah, it also depends. What, what kind of vibe you grew up with and where in the country you live, you know, that has something to do with it as well. And also the stigma of being in Colorado, there are so many people that think that automatically everyone is on drugs. Everyone is high. So when my friend realized I was vegan, she, I noticed every time we talked about her food, she got very defensive. And I thought maybe she was thinking that I was one of those stand on a soap box, kind of vegan, like "meat is murder" kind of person. And I'm like, wait a minute. I'm obviously not like that. So what is her deal? Like, why did she get so quiet when I talk about food or like wanting to share it with her, she was like, oh no, I don't do that. I'm like, you don't do that. Like, what do you mean you don't do that? You don't do broccoli. Like what, and what was going on was she thought (Matt starts laughing) [00:30:55] Matt: that's right. I remember now. [00:30:57] Fawn: She thought that being vegan meant we put marijuana in all of our food. And so when I found that bit out, I started laughing so hard and I immediately told Elle and Alegra. They're like, wait a minute, so she thought that you would give your babies, like when they were infants marijuana????? I'm like, yeah, I think she did. But she was still willing to be my friend, because that was so like the whole marijuana culture is so against her her thing, you know, like it's just a no-no for her, but the fact that she was still willing to be my friend and totally there and like open and like loving I'm like, that's a good friend right there, even though there was a big misunderstanding. Do you know what I mean? So anyway, we cleared it up. [00:31:47] Matt: Lord and for the record folks, yeah. There's no marijuana consumption in this house. [00:31:52] Fawn: I can't even, I can barely have a sip of coffee. Like I feel like, I feel like I just evaporate. Like I can't, I can't handle it. How in the world and you know, the fact that she thought and every meal they were like and everything, you know, and I'm not talking about, CBD, which doesn't get you high. She thought it was like the THC stuff. You know how people cook with it now they're like huge gourmet areas where THC, they put that into everything. Oh my goodness. She thought that anyway, it's so far from us, you know, but anyway, but when that happen? I'm like, that's a good friend right there. She was still open-minded and like in it, you know what I'm saying? Until somehow it came up and I'm like, oh my God, all this time, is that what you've been thinking? She's like, well, yeah. Well, [00:32:50] Matt: yeah. Well, I mean, we remember, uh, Maya, Everybody was like, you're studying yoga. I guess that means you've turned against the church. Both have interesting assumptions, but please take the time to confirm or, you know, your assumptions before you just, you know, block somebody out. [00:33:09] Fawn: So funny to me, like all that stuff, you guys go back and listen to Maya Brauer. She is the head of the Yoga Alliance. We did a few interviews with her, but she was telling me, and I knew this too, from teaching yoga. There are people who think that it is devil worshiping. If you're doing yoga, it's like against their religion. And so when she was doing, and she was talking to us about how her family had to do an intervention, because they felt like she was going to the dark side because she was practicing yoga. Anyway, so, yeah. All right. How do we wrap this up into a little bow? [00:33:48] Matt: Take it slow folks. Take it slow. [00:33:50] Fawn: Or not... (Fawn and Matt start laughing), [00:33:54] Matt: but take moments to evaluate and really try and gain a good understanding of what your given, what you're getting. And not that it needs to always be in balance because there are times that your friends need you. And there are times that you need your friends. I mean, that's life, but you know, if you notice that you're rushing in to deepen the friendship and they're standoffish, then maybe there's a reason for that. [00:34:22] Fawn: Or you can play like me, just go wild and just see what happens. You know, life it's meant to be lived and experienced. Just, um, just, just keep the Nicomachean rule of three in mind while you're doing it. All right. We're going to go. We have a lot to take care of around here guys. Oh, dear. Wish us luck. We're trying to find where we belong on the planet. All right. Thank you. Go to the website. There's a workbook there for you. A no-nonsense guide called "The Ikigai of Friendship - A Workbook" that's there waiting for you, our friendly world podcast.com. Thanks again for listening guys, love you. Talk to you later. Bye. Bye.

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