Unraveling the Art of Asking Questions: Engaging in Meaningful Conversations with Our Friend Barry Lane

Unraveling the Art of Asking Questions: Engaging in Meaningful Conversations with Our Friend Barry Lane TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: Welcome back everyone. Hello. Guess who? Matt. Guess who's here? Everybody. Barry Lane is back. Our beautiful friend Barry is back. Hi, Barry. Welcome back. Hi. Barry, before we start, so Barry, for those of you who don't know, this is Barry Lane, a very special friend of ours, a family friend. Barry is a writer, songwriter, singer. [00:00:26] Fawn: He travels around. All over to talk about kindness, teach kindness, all of it. He's all about the kindness. He's about love. He is seriously the most loving person. Everyone, this is Barry Lane. Barry, can you also let everyone know how they can see your work? Find out about your work, how they can reach you, before we start. [00:00:48] BARRY: Oh, the simplest is, forcefieldforgood. com. That's my songs for children. And, uh, or barrylane. com, too. I'm working on that website, but that will lead there, [00:01:01] Fawn: too. And you're also hearing Rishi in the background. Barry's cute dog. They're in the studio. We're in the middle of It's a major, major snowstorm, and I can see your breath in your studio, Barry. [00:01:18] Fawn: It's so cold over where you are. [00:01:20] BARRY: Yeah. Well, he's really, he's, it looks like he's a dog, but he's really here just for heat. Heat purposes. He doesn't realize it, but he's a hot water bottle. Oh. [00:01:31] Fawn: Today we're gonna be talking about something I'm really, really bad at. And go figure. We have a podcast and we have guests on. But, one of the things I don't like to do ever, is to ask questions of people. I can ask lots of questions when it comes to academics or questioning authority, stuff like that. [00:01:54] Fawn: But when it comes to having someone in front of me, I feel so uncomfortable asking questions because I feel like the few times that I did ask questions, the harshness came like, how dare you ask? It's none of your business, I don't know, I just, I have this fear of being yelled at, so even on podcasts, I don't, if you've all noticed, I don't interview people like that, I don't ask questions, but, I do think, I That it's one of the keys to friendship is to asking questions. [00:02:26] Fawn: I personally am not brave enough to do it. So I do other things to make someone feel comfortable and feel special. And I think that's one of the things that questions do. Is it allows for the person in front of you to feel special. You're, in a way, putting a beautiful light on them, like a spotlight. [00:02:49] Fawn: Not in a spotlight like they're, like, being interrogated, but like, a beautiful light that puts them on stage to let them know that they're the very special person in the room that has the stage to express themselves. To have them be whoever they are. To I guess give of themselves and maybe I've asked people who don't want to give and that's why I get the reactions I get from people. [00:03:19] Fawn: Is I go after maybe the ones that are not as open. I don't know. I'm gonna need, I'm gonna need everybody's help here. So But I'm thinking, if we, like, when people ask me questions, I'm just an open book, so I actually love questions. But I like it when people point things out and they ask me the who, what, where, when, and hows of whatever that I'm about. [00:03:46] Fawn: It's totally fine with me. But going back again to reiterate, I just think Asking questions of one another is an art. It's an art that I'd like to learn. What do you guys think? Barry, Matt, what do you all think? [00:04:00] BARRY: I think it's interesting. I've just been listening to your, your talk and, I think, maybe you don't, maybe the question is not whether we ask questions, but whether we find, finding questions and helping people find questions. [00:04:16] BARRY: And I think that's what you do. You help people find questions in themselves. Sometimes asking can seem like an assault. There was an episode of Frasier Crane where, Frasier started dating someone who was Jewish, and, Niles was teaching him how to talk Jewish. [00:04:32] BARRY: And one of the things he would say was, you answer a question with a question. [00:04:40] BARRY: I was trying to think of an example of how to do it, but it's sort of like, uh, you know, uh, how are you today? Why do you want to know? [00:04:51] MATT: Ouch! So you never really get an answer? [00:04:54] BARRY: Well, I think it's more like, there's a kind of a a nudginess to answering questions [00:04:59] MATT: That's almost like when I ask questions of our oldest. It feels like a wrestling match. Cause I'm just trying to get some kind of an answer. Oh [00:05:06] Fawn: yeah, good luck asking questions of teenagers. And, oh my [00:05:09] MATT: god, I can't get one. I can't get a concise, coherent answer. It's all elusive and, and it's like I have to ask the same question multiple times. [00:05:19] Fawn: Well maybe we have to start with things that we notice. You know? Wow! That, what you're wearing looks amazing. It's beautiful. That, what, what, what color is that? How did you find that? But see, if I asked that, I'm sure someone would say, or would think, Well, I don't want to tell you where I found my sweater. [00:05:40] Fawn: Because, what, you're going to get it too. You know what I'm saying? I don't ask. Well, hold on, hold on. [00:05:44] MATT: Psychologists have actually noticed that, yes. What? It, it can be, in some cases, people see questions as assaults, yes, as you stated. Absolutely. Personally, and professionally, because I did a little bit of homework on this, , the best questions lead to stories. [00:06:00] MATT: Yeah. [00:06:01] BARRY: Yeah. Well, when I taught at University of New Hampshire, you know how at the end of a class they always have, like, they have the students evaluate the teacher, and they give them some kind of form. Mm hmm. And, the forms would ask very specific questions, like, was, Did you learn anything in this class? [00:06:17] BARRY: What did you learn? Yeah, or what did you learn? Describe in detail, or whatever. Or it would be even more particular than that. Was the teacher well prepared? You know? It's the kind of things that, uh, And, , So we had this guy that was head of the English department. He said, You get to say, you actually, your questions give you the answer. [00:06:41] BARRY: Was he well prepared? Yes. No. You know. They actually lead you to the answer. They say, why not just have a simple thing like this, a question like this. What went on in this class? That was the only, so that was the top of the page, a total blank page with what went on in this class. And wow, they get so much more varied, responses [00:07:03] BARRY: And more authentic responses because people just thought, found the questions in themselves, asked themselves, well, we did this and, oh, what happened that day? Oh yeah, we did that. And so that open ended questioning leads to so much better, and more individual response [00:07:23] BARRY: there was a movie with Jack Nicholson, directed by Michelangelo Antonioni, called The Passenger. And he, I forget what the movie was about, but the plot, it's very, avant garde art kind of movie the, one of the characters was a journalist and he was interviewing this man from an African tribe and he asked a question, and the tribal leader turned to him and said, your questions tell me much more about you [00:07:53] BARRY: than my answers would ever tell you about me. [00:07:56] MATT: Wow. That's true. Right. And that's because of a self centered, I think, question. Right. Interviews are spooky things, which is something I thought about, because an interview is an interrogation is how it's seen. Like, I'm sorry, a job interview, specifically. It's like an interrogation. [00:08:11] MATT: It's like, what do you know? What, how can you help us? Without them revealing very much about themselves, because, certainly in that environment, I The interviewer wants to keep control of the entire situation. They don't want the interview to go off the rails in any way, shape, or form. And a newspaper journalist, probably has a similar enough agenda to that, but they're willing to open up a bit more, [00:08:35] Fawn: I think. [00:08:37] Fawn: I mean, even if you get a terrible response, going away from interviewing and having even someone that's very close to you that you're asking questions of, I feel like the closer you are, you may be set up to get all kinds of fire coming back at you for asking a question that is coming from a good place. [00:09:02] Fawn: For example, I asked a very good friend when we first got married. We both got married at the same time. And, you know, everybody's like, when are you gonna have babies? When are you gonna have a kid? Right? Oh dear. And so I knew not to ask that question. But on this particular day, we had spent all day together and we were talking about everything from marriage and everything because we both got married at the same time. [00:09:28] Fawn: And I very innocently asked her, so are you guys thinking of having kids? You know, cause I was leading to like, what's up with all these questions, you know, like, and yeah, come to think of it, just between us, are you thinking of having kids? And the wrath that I got back to this day. I think, I think that was the last time I actually asked her questions. [00:09:54] Fawn: Like, I don't ask her questions because, seriously, the amount of venom that came back at me. And so she's like, I'm, pure venom. But basically, she said, fine, I'll tell you, but don't you ever ask me again. And, but, but, but what happened was, as time went on, I realized, in fact, that was a big deal for, for her, and they were having problems, I guess. [00:10:25] Fawn: And so, in her reaction, Instead of being offended, I should have had the space to go, Wow, you're, um, wow, she's really upset about this. This is definitely a sore spot. Something's going on. As opposed to me thinking, I'm such a dumbass. I shouldn't have asked. I'm so nosy. Whatever. Like, thinking of myself as a hateful person. [00:10:50] Fawn: You know, a nosy person. You know what I'm saying? I took it Well, yeah, I think [00:10:55] BARRY: sometimes you don't know where that person's, it's like you're talking a different language and they're hearing a different thing inside them. So I was on a plane once and this guy sitting next to me was a wealthy cattle merchant. [00:11:12] BARRY: You know, he said, I own like 3, 000 acres in Montana, whatever. So I said, well, how many cows do you have? It's like, what question? And he looked at me, he said, sir. Would you ask somebody how much money they have in the bank? [00:11:30] Fawn: Wow. Wow. [00:11:32] MATT: Yes, I would, sir. So, how about it? [00:11:36] BARRY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me that, too. I want to know that, [00:11:38] Fawn: too. [00:11:39] Fawn: But that's the same, that's the same thing I'm talking about, Barry. Yeah, that's a totally innocent question. How many cows do you have? Like, how much, like, how, what is that like? It's, it's a totally innocent question. I would never equate that to money, but then if I think about it Going back to tribes and everything, each cow is worth a certain amount. [00:12:02] Fawn: That's your [00:12:03] MATT: wealth. And the same goes for this rancher too, but that's just it. I honestly, God, I enjoy being in that naive place. And I enjoy being in that quote unquote ignorant space. You know why? [00:12:16] Fawn: Because no one really like yells at you. Exactly. Because you're [00:12:20] MATT: so tall and mean. I'm [00:12:21] Fawn: so sweet. I'm lovely. [00:12:23] Fawn: See, Matt looks mean. Um, that's [00:12:26] BARRY: actually a good way I found, when I get stopped by the police, it's a good way to, not get a ticket, is if you could ask them a question before they talk to you, is this, or whatever, I don't know. How fast, do you know why I stopped you, how do you answer that question? [00:12:47] Fawn: You don't, right? You're supposed [00:12:49] MATT: to have a chat. Because you wanted to have a chat. Because you thought I looked interesting. [00:12:54] BARRY: No, but you're right. Maybe we [00:12:57] Fawn: should ask them, Hi, officer, how are you? turn it around how are you? Make them, human. [00:13:05] BARRY: Oh, that's the best thing to do. Yeah, the best thing to do. [00:13:09] BARRY: Actually, I once shook hands with a This is probably something, when I think about it afterwards, I realize, a lot of it is white privilege and stuff like that because you don't get that kind of leeway sometimes when you have different color skin in a situation, like that. [00:13:28] BARRY: One that I've used before that was actually real, I was looking for an elementary school when I stopped it. I'm so glad that you stopped me. Can you tell me where, where the school is? I've been looking for it for half an hour. I'm supposed to work with the kids there today. [00:13:43] BARRY: And, you know, and then afterwards he said, Oh, you know why I stopped you? Oh no. Cause you went through a stoplight too fast or whatever. And then, He said, yeah, the school's over there, you know, it helped him to see himself as a public servant rather than a cop who was enforcing a law. [00:14:02] BARRY: You know, he was helping me. But it was authentic, too. I was trying to get to the school. You're [00:14:07] Fawn: right, Barry. That happened to me, too, once. I was in L. A. and this was before phones. So this was with traveling with, , a Thomas guide in an area of L. A. I'd never been to before. And because I was lost, I was running late. [00:14:23] Fawn: I was totally freaked out because I seriously didn't know where I was. And I didn't want to be late. And I turned, I made a right on a street because, you know how you drive and you drive and you can't find a way to turn right ever? Or sometimes. So like, one crept up on me so I turned right, right away. [00:14:42] Fawn: And I didn't realize there was a cop behind me and he pulls, you know, he like, he's like, Warp! Warp! And I'm like, oh no. So as soon as he pops over, I'm About to start crying because I'm just so stressed out. Right, because you're late. Like, even more now because now I'm a cop. And now you have a cop. And so, as soon as he came near, I'm like, Help, I'm lost! [00:15:07] MATT: Damsel in distress. [00:15:08] Fawn: And, you know what? It helped. Because he realized, like, he realized I was a human. that I meant no harm. I was not drunk. I were, you know, and, uh, so anyway, he's like, do you know why I stopped you? And I'm like, [00:15:28] Fawn: but then he's like, you turned way too fast on that street. I didn't get a ticket and I don't remember what else transpired in that conversation, but a, there was no ticket, but B, he, I actually became human and one time there was like inhumane officer, an inhumane officer that pulled me over at LAX and I was so scared and this was around 9 11 or after. [00:15:56] Fawn: So I was especially like on guard and I'm sure he was too looking at me as a Middle Eastern person. I don't know, but I pulled over to the left. So far, that this officer had to walk through a bush to get to my window. Oh dear. Cause you know LAX, everything's on the right. And then you have those bushes on the left? [00:16:18] Fawn: I don't know if they still have them. But he, he had to rustle through like a bear. to get to my window and I was crying. I was so upset because I didn't want to go to the airport. I, you know, for those of you who know me, don't ever ask me to pick you up or take you to the airport. And I had to do that for a friend after I had explained specifically, like emphatically, don't ask me to take you to the airport. [00:16:45] Fawn: Just get a shuttle. Gosh. So anyway, so I was doubly upset. And here I am getting a, and I got a huge ticket too, by the way. It was hundreds. At the airport, if you get a ticket, it's terrible. Oh dear. Anyway, but his first question was, What's wrong with you? Cause I was crying. What's wrong with you? [00:17:06] MATT: Well, gee, it turned out to be a great day, uh, Ossifer. [00:17:10] Fawn: Like, you pulled me over! [00:17:12] MATT: What did I do wrong? You expect happiness? [00:17:15] Fawn: And to this day, I don't remember what he pulled me over for. I don't remember. It was a long time ago, but. For a couple hundred dollars. But, I don't know. Anyway, back to questions. Yes. Diverged? Well, [00:17:29] MATT: I would, I would say that, you know, in, in, not the case of the guy who wrote you the ticket, but in those other two cases, I mean, definitely, you stole the initiative, you stole the key, you had yourself reframed, not as a rule breaker, but as just a person. [00:17:45] Fawn: Yeah, you, can you explain to everyone what Ki? We're not talking about key that lets you into a door. So, [00:17:51] MATT: ki, martial arts, energy. So, if somebody comes at you, like, let's say, to hurt you, to hit you, to whatever, either you're not there, or, basically, a technique. You make it so, what they're doing, they feel self conscious about, maybe, on some level. [00:18:07] MATT: You basically cut them off. So, basically, yes. You cut their ki, you cut them off. Yeah, destroy their energy as it were. [00:18:15] Fawn: You can cut off their anger, you can cut off, it comes in different ways, [00:18:20] MATT: Right, so, yeah, Fawn loves to describe this as, you know, can you imagine if there's like two world leaders sitting at a table and they're arguing with each other? [00:18:28] Fawn: Not two, like a whole [00:18:29] MATT: bunch of them. And then somebody walks in with a pink box which ostensibly is filled with pastries? [00:18:35] Fawn: Yeah, no matter what country you're, you're from. Everybody's gonna wanna know. It doesn't matter where in the world you're from. It's always the pink box that has pastries in it. That everything will stop. [00:18:45] Fawn: All the fighting will stop. Because who, Who doesn't get, happy at the sight of a I'm sorry, now I know what the pink box actually I was gonna name a bakery the pink box, because this is what it was The idea was the pink box, and like, it's a peace offering, right? I had no idea it meant vagina. [00:19:03] Fawn: Because [00:19:03] MATT: you put any two words together, and it means a human's body part. It doesn't [00:19:08] Fawn: really matter. I was gonna say, who doesn't get happy over the sight of a pink box? [00:19:14] MATT: Well, honestly, I think it's curiosity. Do you think? Yes. Oh no. Everybody knows what's, no curiosity is key. [00:19:20] Fawn: No, I'm sorry. But someone can walk in with like a black box and they'll think that there's a grenade in there. [00:19:27] Fawn: They're not gonna be like, Ooh, what's that? But their [00:19:29] MATT: attention is still drawn to it. [00:19:30] Fawn: Curiosity. Yeah. But I'm saying the pink box makes everyone go, it's snack time, . Yeah. Like, oh dear. You know, like, back to being a kid. [00:19:41] BARRY: Well, uh, back to being a kid. I think that's a great metaphor. Like when, , if you watch news today, you know, with all the conflict going on in the Middle East, especially, but also, the news journalists, if you actually looked into what they were doing, it was like, how can I make this fight worse? [00:20:01] BARRY: If you actually look at their questions that they're asking, oftentimes they're not questions that are aimed. At the pink box thing, the, the, the peace or or kindness they're aimed at well, I You haven't condemned something that you did or, Mm-Hmm. , she hasn't condemned something that he did, or, and they're looking for this sort of moral indignation and self-righteousness to draw that out of people and [00:20:31] BARRY: there's a lot of situations where, yeah, what you did wasn't right, and then you get into history, where did history start, and, yeah, that kind of thing, and, you started it. What if that journalist, they'd probably not have high ratings, but maybe not, maybe they would, if they actually said, let's get beyond the who started it thing, and get to, where we're gonna, how we're gonna live together and, find the sweet spot where our lives overlap with each other and what we want for our children and our grandchildren. [00:21:02] BARRY: Um, the seventh [00:21:03] Fawn: generation. I agree with you there, Barry, but traveling and photographing different areas, especially areas that have conflict. You're always surrounded by people who control that area. So I wonder if behind the camera that we're not seeing, are the ones that are part of the fighting. [00:21:25] Fawn: So they're controlling the questions that you're asking, and you're at their mercy, where They tell you what to do. You have absolutely, your life is in their hands. It may not look like it when you're looking at the [00:21:39] BARRY: picture. Yeah, I meant more like, uh, Pierce Morgan or these kind of shows that [00:21:44] Fawn: are on the internet. [00:21:46] BARRY: Right, right. That are, they're looking, spoiling for fights. Well, [00:21:52] MATT: yeah. It's clickbait. It's, you know, we, we really want to get the soundbite that says, up is down, we want to get you to admit to something. And so how do we draw that out of you? Well, we stress you out. Well, we get you emotional. [00:22:08] MATT: We get you saying, yeah, you don't understand. It's and then we gotcha. And then we've got our soundbite. We've got our Pulitzer. We've got our 10 million views. We've got our whatever success looks like. And it's so all short term. Um, Nobody's going for the long, nobody's playing the long game. Everybody's playing the, this quarter, this week, this month game. [00:22:30] MATT: So they need to figure out the incendiary, and if they get somebody on an incendiary question, then that gives them more credibility, and then they can get maybe higher up the food chain. Who [00:22:39] BARRY: knows? Yeah, but then, Mr. Rogers, He once said, something I thought that was profound. He said, isn't it much more interesting and human and powerful to watch somebody trying to figure out their problems rather than watch people shoot each other? [00:22:55] BARRY: He was talking about TV violence and stuff. How much more dramatic it is and interesting and, I just think they don't even try it because they're so hooked into what Matt's talking about. [00:23:08] MATT: They're so hooked into the adrenaline feed, as it were. Yeah. [00:23:14] Fawn: Well, let's take it back to taking the spotlight and putting it on the person. [00:23:18] Fawn: So, let's, I mean, we can't control the media. We can't really, we can't. It's owned by huge, heads of corporations. We can't really control that. It's like controlling the leaders of nations, at this point. But, we can have A way to maneuver one on one relationships. Meeting strangers, meeting someone you've met for the first time. [00:23:42] Fawn: Or a friend, even, that you've known for a while. And asking questions, and the response may not be easy. But, let's talk about how we can maneuver. What are some good questions? I think Barry probably knows best. Because, I think, like you said, Matt. Kids have the most beautiful questions. [00:24:05] Fawn: Well, [00:24:05] MATT: kids ask the innocent questions. Yes, [00:24:08] Fawn: but their questions lead to conversation. [00:24:11] MATT: Their questions absolutely do lead to conversations, but [00:24:13] Fawn: they're not But I don't remember what questions they ask. Well, see, the questions that they asked me was, Why are you so short? Well, and, but that's just it. Those are fighting words. [00:24:25] Fawn: But [00:24:26] MATT: they ask from such a curious, naive place. And that, to me, is the key. Yeah, so true. But my question is not, cause to me that's just a fact. You know, because kids don't have a point of reference. They don't understand. Uh, like, I asked, oh my god, I asked an uncle. We were at his house, we'd never visited him before, and he was showing me off this really cool organ, and I asked him how much it costs, and my parents were flabbergasted, like, I didn't even understand that that wasn't a good [00:24:59] Fawn: question to ask. [00:25:00] Fawn: There's nothing wrong with that. I remember I taught a school Barry just [00:25:04] MATT: said, can't ask a cattleman how many cattle he's got. It's, you know, because you're asking him how much money he has. Asking somebody how much an organ costs is playing on the same field. I [00:25:16] Fawn: think that's very smart, though, to ask that question. [00:25:19] Fawn: I like the how many cows do you have. I know, so did I. The thing is, like, but that can lead to conversation right there. Yes, [00:25:27] MATT: and it did. Now we all understand that cattlemen view their wealth as how many cattle they've got. [00:25:32] Fawn: Yeah, but conversation with that person, not between us. Well, [00:25:37] MATT: yeah, but he got that right in [00:25:38] Fawn: that moment. [00:25:39] Fawn: The one time that I did teach a class of kindergarteners, I went in, to talk about my photography work as a photographer and I was asked how much money do you make and how do you make it? And I thought that was so brilliant because going through university and everything, we never asked that question. [00:26:00] Fawn: We should have asked that question. But here is a five year old asking that question. I'm like, wow, you are a genius. Good for you for asking that question. Awesome, and then I told them, you know, my way, but Wow, that was brilliant. But I mean, if it was your parents, they would probably get upset. I think, I think that's what hinders us is like, older people, when we're young, or if we're young at heart, someone saying, You can't ask that question. [00:26:31] Fawn: How dare you the gall, you know, it closes us off and closes us off from having good conversations and meaningful interactions. [00:26:41] BARRY: It also closes you off from doing things differently and like, uh, I think all design begins with childlike questions and, , the joke about Steve Jobs, you know, one of my favorite stories is when he was in for his liver transplant and he was under the anesthesia and they put one of those oxygen sensors on his finger and he looked at it, he pulled it off and he said to the nurse, hand me a couple more prototypes in about a week. [00:27:07] BARRY: See, he was talking about how it's so poorly designed. I think that kind of that place of innocence is where all the most innovation and thinking comes from, real thinking comes from. It's one of the tragedies of humanity is that people don't die quick enough and the younger generation have a chance to rise to the top without you. [00:27:34] BARRY: Pretending like they're the older generation . Wow. Sometimes I, sometimes I think that that's a real problem. You know, actually, Steve Jobs is a good example. He talks about in his speech at Stanford that death is the great innovator, the thing because people die, that people can take over or have maybe a bigger idea. [00:27:56] BARRY: I really have faith in. Generation, whatever they're calling them, Y, X, Z, whatever they call them, but people who are looking at the world with fresh eyes, they don't see climate change as somehow a plot against oil companies. You know, they see it, wait a minute, this is, we actually believe in scientists and what they're telling us Einstein said you can not get. [00:28:22] BARRY: To a different place by asking the same questions that the people who got you into the jam Asked you have to ask new questions and That comes out of childlike [00:28:33] MATT: wonder and that's just a Zen mind beginners mind is something that they talk about how you should try And walk into every situation with fresh eyes absolutely And that's indeed something. [00:28:45] MATT: I was reading in a book that I'm hoping we'll talk at some length on later in our podcast, there was a sequence of questions. These kids were allowed to ask their teacher anything they wanted and their teacher was a female teacher. And so the first thing they asked is, are you married? [00:29:00] MATT: And she said, not anymore. And the kids took a moment and then they said, do you still love him? And she said, yes. Two questions. Or three questions, whatever it was. Oh my god, cut to her immediate core. From that naive, from that zen mind, beginner's mind, asking new questions. Nobody had ever asked her that before. [00:29:25] MATT: And the kids and their raw naivete did it and that's just it. It's almost like, you know, all those famous sayings, you know, dance like no one's watching Love like you've never been hurt. That's kind of how you have to walk into questions and some people are gonna be Meanie fo'feenies and that's kind of who they are and that's on them That's not on you and getting past that point building those calluses. [00:29:50] Fawn: I have a question. Yes. Do you think that that's why? It, because when you asked about the divorce thing and everything, when you just talked about that, it reminded me of someone we knew, a neighbor, remember? All she did was talk about her ex husband. All she did. Yes. And you said, there's obviously still a charge there. [00:30:08] Fawn: And that charge could be love, who knows? Um, even though there was trauma, all of that stuff. But, my question is, do you think that's why certain people repeat the same story over and over and over again? Is because they're looking for someone to Ask them questions and so they can talk about it. It, [00:30:26] MATT: it might be. [00:30:27] MATT: Absolutely. We love talking about bad stuff that happens to us, just almost to purge it. I had some challenging news happen to me a while ago and I found, you know, and something I was thinking about for our topic today, but I found an impartial acquaintance to just dump this on. And in the process of dumping it on him, I lifted the burden from me. [00:30:52] MATT: But, meh, he didn't care. He doesn't know me. He probably has already forgotten about it. But he took my burden for a second, and then just, whoosh, whisked it away from me. Because it's good to talk about these things. It's good to talk about bad stuff that happens. Just to, bleh, spit it out, get it out. [00:31:11] Fawn: Yeah, sometimes you just need a there, there. [00:31:14] Fawn: Here you go, like, you know, like. And not [00:31:17] MATT: even that, just an impartial observer, somebody from the outside. They listen to your side of the facts and say, Meh, [00:31:23] Fawn: yeah, I get it. I get it. And that's it. I see you. I feel you. Maybe. Yeah. [00:31:31] BARRY: But what, what, yeah. When you were talking about, the teacher, who got asked the questions by the kids. [00:31:36] BARRY: I work with kids a lot. Mm hmm. One of the lessons I do is about, motivation, developing a character, starting a story from a character's point of view rather than the plot. You know, this is going to happen and the characters are like chess that you move through a plot. So, we start with Cinderella. I always think, the two characters made of two things, trouble and dreams, [00:32:00] BARRY: and, So I'd say, what's Cinderella's trouble, or what's her dream, and then we only get to the more advanced part of the story, which is what they want, which is trickier, because oftentimes, oftentimes that, if Cinderella doesn't want to go to the ball and marry a prince, she just wants to find a new piece of string for her string collection, it's not going to be as interesting a story. [00:32:22] BARRY: Right. Yes. Gotta have to want something, you know, so. So I say to the kids, what does Cinderella want? And, one response might be, she wants to marry the prince, the king, or whatever. No, she wants to get married or whatever. And then, this is the question I found that really works. [00:32:40] BARRY: I said, well, but what does she really want? And then a little first grader put her hand up. She says, she wants to be loved. You know. You know. And at that point, then they realize there are two dreams. It's just that. outer dream that you want, and then there's the inner, inner dream, the one that, the real thing, you know, and, and we so often, what is called the American dream is mistaking the outer one for the inner one, you know, like, if I get all this stuff, I will be loved, you know, everyone will love me, when reality is, love starts, the inner dream is the more powerful one, and I think one way to look at questions is the quest part. I had a chapter in a book once called the, putting the quest back in questions and the quest being to have that inner quest rather than just facts. There was a show when I was a kid called Dragnet and the police officers would go around saying, just the facts, ma'am, they just wanted, just the facts. And that's what I think, Piers Morgan could ask the question like, so how are we going to actually find real peace when it seems you're so entrenched with each other? [00:33:51] BARRY: Don't you ever think about your grandchildren? If they could ask questions that were actually about deeper motivation rather than a clickbait type of inciting argument questions. I think it would be a good show. You know, that'd be a good show. I think cause it would be like, why is this guy asking us such weird questions? [00:34:12] BARRY: Because the only time I've ever seen that in the Middle East situation, which is on my mind a lot lately, cousin over there is that, When they have women, asking the questions and not men, women and not women who think like men or just acting like men, but they're thinking about children. I remember once it was powerful, Rio, not even a, it's not even a debate because when you call it a debate, it's like [00:34:37] BARRY: a game where you're trying to get to an ending, a winner and a loser, but it was a discussion of, uh, Israeli and Palestinian women talking about what they wanted for their children and their life together. Those kinds of situations, lead to the kinds of questions that get to that inner motivation, like what do we really want? [00:34:59] BARRY: Not what, somehow, we're kind of supposed to want based on our side of an argument it's hard to get there. I call it the sweet spot in an argument where both, the interests of both, it's a Venn diagram, where the interests of both. With kids I have them make a Venn diagram, they actually put their arms up, one kid on one side, one on the other. [00:35:21] BARRY: They make, they overlap, and in the overlap they have a kid stick their head through and smile in a sweet way, and that's the sweet spot in the argument. That's the part of the argument where no side can argue, against it, because it's our common, it's the pink box of pastry, which is literally the sweet spot, the thing that, where we overlap in our needs and wants. [00:35:47] BARRY: What do you really want? Everyone wants to be loved. I mean, if you don't want to be loved, then you're probably, uh, uh, have a real issue, a pathology or something, you know, that's, uh, that makes you anti social in some way and even those people want to be loved. I have a song I wrote called, "Fee-fi-fo-fum" it's about The giant's point of view, you know, [00:36:13] MATT: uh, Right, right. [00:36:15] MATT: Because people just come in, they steal the golden goose, they destroy his castle. I know, the [00:36:20] BARRY: guy's like, uh, he's a [00:36:21] MATT: victim. And it may just be that, he was just waiting for his girlfriend to come home or come over the next day or something, right? He's going to get married in a week. [00:36:31] BARRY: Yeah. [00:36:32] BARRY: Yeah. When you start thinking that way, all of a sudden it's hard to imagine somebody that doesn't have these motivations, these real deep needs and, the villains of the world. I mean, it's easy to see the villain as somehow. Other, you know, but [00:36:47] MATT: yeah, inhuman or [00:36:48] Fawn: other, but like, yeah, thinking about that, I, in a way, I'm having trouble with this conversation we're having right now, because I think that when reporters go, ask questions of people that are in the midst of war, again, another thing that I've noticed is that we're asking normal people. [00:37:09] Fawn: Why they're in conflict. They are not in conflict. It's other powers that are creating the conflict. We're not asking the right people. I think those questions I'm very uncomfortable with, like, I would never ask those questions because nobody wants to have their children, their family members killed. [00:37:29] Fawn: So to ask, why do you hate someone, would much rather bring it to a level , within community when you meet someone, what are some questions you can ask to develop a friendship. Do you know what I'm saying? Because, people don't control politics. It's people that you don't see that control, not even politics, but control everything that's going on. [00:37:51] Fawn: The hatred, really, in most cases, in almost all the cases, comes from people that you never see. [00:37:57] Fawn: Yeah, true. So, when we walk into a room, or we're on the streets, and you want to get to know someone. Well, how would a kid? I don't remember anymore, and I feel like our kids didn't have that normal Uh, our kids aren't normal. They were never normal. Like, like, their, their language wasn't normal. They were using incredibly big words because that's all they heard around the house. [00:38:26] Fawn: So they walked around like old people. Okay. Like older people. Like adults. Like adults is what I'm trying to say. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And their questions seemed like totally, like, the questions we would ask each other at home, right? Right. Because there was no village, we didn't have a bunch of people that we were around, so all the kids knew was us, right? [00:38:49] Fawn: Mm hmm. So, Barry, what, I mean, you're around kids a lot. What, what, nuggets can you give us on how they ask questions when they first get to know someone? Or Even if they've known a person for a while. I know we talk about innocence, but it's like telling me how to have fun. I'm like, I don't know how to have fun. [00:39:12] Fawn: How do you have fun? How do you ask questions? [00:39:15] MATT: Right. [00:39:16] BARRY: It's not a question. It's not a checklist. I can tell you with the example that I do this lesson with kids where they write the lead to each other's biography. At the beginning, and they start by asking questions, just open ended questions. And they might be like a list of questions like, where were you born, and those kinds of things. [00:39:40] BARRY: And you tell them not to write them down, but you just start asking. Because what happens, if kids will make a checklist and write a bunch of questions down. , they'll actually go through the checklist, okay, born in Cleveland and this, and, and all of a sudden, and they're looking down at their pad, right? And, and so the key is to be like Terry Gross or somebody. [00:40:02] BARRY: If you listen to really good interviewers, what they do is they may ask a few questions here and there, but they listen deep and they look for the question that comes in the moment. out of that childlike curiosity of the response from the person. And that's the quest. Uh, and because that's all I really want to teach them is to, value and recognize that whatever it is, uh, you know, in fact, one of the examples I give is like the president at a press conference where, where they know who's going to ask the questions and what, Press secretary's hate is the, oftentimes is the follow up question. [00:40:46] BARRY: So the reporter from the Washington Post doesn't ask the question that's on his checklist, but he asks the one that everyone wants to know about. That's an example, maybe not the best example, but it's an example of that, instinct for being curious. And that's one of the things I noticed about your kids, because I've met your kids. [00:41:05] BARRY: Is that they're in the room, sometimes when you go to places, sometimes when I meet kids in classrooms are this way that the best classrooms with the best teachers, the kids are so much like, like, like very supercharged adults who are actually, because adults aren't this way, very curious and welcoming and sort of just, it's, There, they show up. [00:41:33] BARRY: They're in the room. You know, they're, they're not just kind of like, oh, there's a bunch of, there's a new guy, who is, whatever, you know, it's just like they want to know, it's a joyous thing. It's really joy, I think, is what it is. The joy of questioning. [00:41:48] MATT: Yes. Yes, very much so. I was, oh my goodness, and welcome to taking this down a strange turn. [00:41:56] MATT: But, I was at the gas station. I hang out with the guys at the gas station, and it's a weird world. And, so, these are people who don't know my stories. And honestly, I don't even know what stories I know and don't know anymore. But we went down a rabbit hole the other day because I completely forgot something that had happened to me when I was like 15. [00:42:16] MATT: And I told the story. I told the canned story. But then they kept asking questions, making statements, drawing it back, and really made it into a big curious ball of stuff. And it made for a much more interesting conversation. Something I forgot. I was actually in. I'm going to cross myself now. I was actually in a school shooting. [00:42:41] MATT: I forgot. Exactly. I've never even told you this story. No. I was at a football game in, uh, Compton. I played in the high school band. So we were at the football game. We were on the away side of the stadium and a shot rang out. Qualifies as a school shooting. Right. So anyways. Wow. And the follow up questions, the complete like, really, what, huh? [00:43:07] MATT: And the whole story, you know, it was it was that kind of an experience. It wasn't a here's my story and let's move on. It was like, yeah, because, and honestly, I think part of it was because this experience is so foreign to everyone else who was in the room. There were no assumptions to be made. [00:43:27] MATT: And that's the real trick, and that's the Zen mind, beginner's mind, again, is you don't make any assumptions about it. Just because you were in a similar situation, doesn't mean you were in a similar situation. Right. And because it was so foreign, again, everybody laid aside their egos when they asked me questions. [00:43:47] MATT: They weren't asking me questions that made themselves look smart. They were asking questions that were questions. Because that's the other problem I think we have with people who question us is, either they're interrogating us or they want to show off how [00:44:00] Fawn: smart they are. [00:44:01] Fawn: And it's also because they don't want the conversation to go anywhere that's uncomfortable. Because as you said, as, Barry explained it , is You, want to be in the moment and genuinely listen and the questions come up. Much like Ali was talking to us about improvisation. [00:44:20] Fawn: It's all about the improv. But it made me think of your family. Every time we got together, they had a whole list of questions. What have you been reading? No, but I could tell. that they had a meeting about it, about what questions they're going to ask at what point. So we would all sit around and then it was like they had memorized them and they would just blurt out the questions. [00:44:44] Fawn: You could tell this was a premeditated conversation. It's not real like they just want it to go a certain way. So we don't I'm assuming so we don't veer into Uncomfortable territory right which doesn't work for me. I'll always take it to [00:45:03] MATT: the uncomfortable right and and that's just it I think we need to start feeling more comfortable with things that are uncomfortable because Again, it's it's so funny how this goes to the last maybe the last podcast we did Uncomfortable is what makes us grow Right, yeah [00:45:20] BARRY: Well, it's also about allowing, um, one of the things I not, I went to live in England when I was about 23 for a while, in pubs there, I was an American. [00:45:31] BARRY: I found all my stories were kind of packaged the way Matt was describing. I had the soundbite all ready and I, I'd say it, and they'd be, he'd, he'd be sitting around a table. These guys would be there with their big pints of beer and they'd just sort of. It was like, why is he telling such a short story? [00:45:49] BARRY: And there was kind of a, it actually helped me to expand my, it had a much bigger attention span around me. So it allowed me, just like a potted plant that's root bound, to expand my story's work just by their silences and their kind of waiting. And there's a thing in teaching called wait time. I don't know if you've heard that term before, but, [00:46:13] BARRY: the best teachers know about it. There's three wait times. The first is, where a teacher waits for a kid to answer. If you watch, like, movies and stuff, teachers don't even do that. Right, Billy! And then they go to the next person. They're kind of like, they're kind of like these master teachers who are pointing, drawing stuff on the board, whatever. [00:46:33] BARRY: But the great teachers, they wait for the kid to actually say something. And that's the first wait time. And then the second wait time is, to wait long enough for that kid to finish saying what they say, and then leave a silence so that another student can respond in the class. That's the second wait time. And then the third wait time is like waiting for another kid to respond, for the class, So we talk about how can, how can we make the uncomfortable silence comfortable in a classroom? [00:47:05] BARRY: If it's a classroom where that's not true, there'll always be one kid that the, a student, kinda kid that wants to tell the right answer all the time and break up the silence, you know? But in a classroom that's truly authentic, then you have this amazing, [00:47:21] BARRY: thing that happens is, which is that there's no hierarchy. The communication isn't between the teacher and the student, like, bzz, bzz, bzz, back and forth. It's with each other. It's a hive type mentality that develops. [00:47:33] Fawn: That is totally true. That is totally true. Like, have you noticed when There's three people, and you're talking about something, and someone says something, like, Oh, I remember, okay, three of us, we were talking, and it was on Zoom. [00:47:49] Fawn: We see each other's faces, you know, like, all of our reactions. And one of our friends got a candy bar, and the candy bar in England, it's called Magnum. No, it was, it was an ice cream bar. Ice cream bar, Magnums, yes. Magnum. And it was an extra large. Yes. And so I looked at my other friend in the silence, cause after, after our friend described the extra large Magnum, she can't wait to bite into it. [00:48:13] Fawn: Mm hmm. I just looked at my other friend and like, kind of like, ro Rolled your eyes? No, I didn't roll my eyes. I looked at her with like, one eye open. You know like how you're like, mm hmm You know, it has really [00:48:26] MATT: chocolate. It's dark. It's a nice vanilla No, but [00:48:29] Fawn: in that in that silence in that silence there was major communication happening on one other side And then there was more silence, and then we started laughing so hard. [00:48:43] Fawn: And our, friend with the ice cream was like, What's going on? And so we, you know, the conversation took a different turn, and then we all were rolling with laughter. But, yeah, it was because there was that allowance for that silence, but, but there was so much happening within that silence. [00:49:00] Fawn: You know, that was, things were said. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, I, I, I forget that. You're absolutely right, Barry, because I'm one of those people that doesn't like silence. But, that totally transforms me right now just listening to you, Barry. Absolutely. That's the silence I could get behind. [00:49:23] BARRY: It's like popcorn, the heat, the oil. The silence is like the heating up of the oil and stuff. it comes out of, out of silence, [00:49:32] Fawn: oh, by the way, for those who don't know, in America, magnum is a form of, uh, pro, how do you say it? Prophylactic. It's a condom. Oh. And the fact that it was extra large, so we were laughing, that's what we were laughing at. [00:49:47] Fawn: Because she, she was from England and didn't know. That, that was a condom over here in the U. S. and that's what we were laughing at. Anyway. [00:49:57] BARRY: That's hilarious. [00:50:03] Fawn: So, do you have, I know you have some notes, Matt. I do. Yeah, you always like want to talk about certain things if you know what subject we're talking about and then we close the show off and you're like, oh, I didn't, [00:50:19] MATT: I didn't. Yes, but you know what? We're supposed to be having a conversation, and, you know, it's almost, it would almost be, what is it, uh, against the whole idea of the show if I'm like, Oh yes, I wanted to talk about this, this, this, this, and this. [00:50:33] MATT: It turns into an interrogation. [00:50:34] Fawn: Oh my god, do you know what I was just gonna say? I was just gonna say, well, it got quiet. [00:50:38] MATT: It did, I noticed that. I noticed it got quiet, and so you were like, I got uncomfortable. So [00:50:43] BARRY: Uncomfortable. I thought that was good practice for, but it doesn't work on radio. [00:50:49] Fawn: I failed. No, it does work. [00:50:51] Fawn: It does work. I failed. Sorry. You see? You see I can't. I can't do it. Who, all right, let's have some silence. I just dunno what to say. [00:51:06] Fawn: I hear [00:51:06] BARRY: plow [00:51:13] Fawn: I like it. Well, it's quiet. I have a, I [00:51:16] BARRY: have a video I'll send it to, I have the sub cloud I did of a class. Writing a song. We wrote a song. Oh, I didn't wanna say goodbye to them. So I said, let's just write a goodbye song. And we started writing this goodbye song. I just found it on SoundCloud. [00:51:33] BARRY: I forgot, I had posted about eight years ago, or 10 years ago. And it was wonderful because of that reason. You could, you could feel their ideas coming out of the silence. You could hear it in the. [00:51:49] Fawn: It just feels like, again, it's the same lesson [00:51:51] MATT: it's about improv. It's about To me, it's about, Zen mind, beginner's mind, asking naive questions. It's about taking a genuine interest. And if you don't take a genuine interest, then maybe you shouldn't be talking to this person. I don't know. Sometimes you just need to be with someone, but our whole focus today was how to ask the questions. [00:52:12] Fawn: And the answer is to be spontaneous, not to go in with the questions, not to go in with an agenda, but go in seeing the person and allow them to have space to respond. Yes, and [00:52:28] MATT: then which is what Ali was saying and then ask those questions back in that you know Are the pieces that you're curious about because I've I've actually I've done a myriad of things I'll hang out with a neighbor and On the face of it. [00:52:43] MATT: We have nothing in common But we have interesting, far ranging conversations that start from nowhere just because we just start, digging at something . And then I've also had occasions where I've asked somebody a question that I genuinely want an answer to and I think that they might be able to help me with. [00:53:00] MATT: There was stuff that happened at work and I was just curious to hear people whose opinions I respected, how, and that's maybe the key. Uh, people whose opinions I respect and or people who are completely emotionally detached from it. I was wondering what kind of advice they would give me if I asked them that. [00:53:17] MATT: So I did. But again, it requires a certain fearlessness, a certain, yeah, fearlessness and naivete. And at the end of the day, if this is somebody I'm working with all the time, I'm probably not going to ask a question that could make me look god awful terrible to work with. [00:53:35] MATT: But, you know, with those random people in our lives, why not? [00:53:39] Fawn: You know, it makes me think of culture, too. That, like, last time with Ali. Ali is a humanitarian clown. As a, as, she, Oh, yeah. But Ali's also an actor, voiceover actor. She works in the film industry. I was going to say it's a cultural thing, but have you noticed that on the East Coast, we get questioned a lot. And that's their way of starting a conversation, to really get to know you. But on the West Coast, we don't ask questions because we don't want to look bad, right? [00:54:13] Fawn: Kind but not nice. Nice but not kind. And we don't want to be asked questions because we don't want to look bad. Right. [00:54:20] MATT: So we just don't, nobody, nobody [00:54:21] Fawn: talks. But on the East Coast, it seems like people ask the questions that, from a West Coast point of view, you're like, ooh, that's incredibly invasive. [00:54:32] Fawn: Why are they asking so many questions of my personal life? And, and yet But it could be like, but it's totally [00:54:37] MATT: innocent. Yes, I've always been that way, though. I've always asked questions, you know? You're an anomaly. I would, I would, you know, I am fine asking Barry all about playing the guitar. Oh, dear. Does that mean I don't know how to play the guitar? [00:54:51] MATT: Well, shock of shocks. [00:54:53] Fawn: And that's what West Coast people do, especially L. A. If you ask questions, they think it's a weak point, that you are ignorant. Yes. Which is so, that's ignorant. But [00:55:03] MATT: let's be careful not to paint with too broad of a brush. Let's say our experience is on the West Coast. Alright, let's [00:55:09] Fawn: talk about it in this term. [00:55:11] Fawn: Um, what do you call it, um, this rank level versus this rank level? You know, like, like, one friend always wants to be the other. Oh, the alpha versus the beta? Yes, thank you, that's what I was thinking of. The alpha versus the beta friend. Which is an episode we did a long time ago, right? But they automatically assume you're [00:55:31] MATT: beta Yes And that's a nasty assumption that people have had most people that I have seen is that if you are Excellent at one thing you must be excellent at everything if you are bad at one thing you must be bad at everything. People don't have an understanding that just because I can catch a football thrown by a professional athlete. [00:55:54] MATT: That does not mean I'm a Rhodes Scholar. That does not mean we can have a wide ranging conversation about the political intrigues of Southeast Asia. [00:56:03] Fawn: But just because I asked someone, same friend, by the way, with a pregnancy thing, I asked how they baked a pie. And Forever, for years, she treated me like I don't know how to cook or bake. [00:56:17] Fawn: And finally, and this is a good friend of mine, after decades, I'm like, you know, I was a professional baker way before we met. I was just asking you a question to see how you do it. I had to say it because I was getting on my nerves after all these years of being put down in a way. Do you know what I mean? [00:56:38] Fawn: She always assumed I was beneath her. And it was, it was not just with baking, it was with everything, but I used the baking as a way to say, enough. Right, [00:56:47] MATT: and that's why I wouldn't necessarily ask these types of questions in a work environment, because this is a situation where you have to get along. [00:56:55] MATT: Ugh. But I still will, actually. I'll still ask technical questions. I, you know, I'm like, Ooh, are they gonna think I'm foolish for asking this? I don't care. [00:57:03] Fawn: So, , at the risk of becoming a questionable person, like a questionable friend, I'm just going to be bold. Like Ollie said, be brave, be bold. [00:57:13] Fawn: In our conversations, much like what Barry deals with. The kids are bold and brave. Their questions are totally from the heart [00:57:24] MATT: legit. And that's the other part of it. That is where I believe our questions should come from a genuine sense of curiosity. If you don't care, don't ask. [00:57:32] BARRY: Yeah. And I think, a few things that I wanted to say is just briefly is that, when Matt, when you were talking about your friends, that you have nothing in common with, I think when you come from a childlike perspective, there's nobody, you have nothing in common with. And [00:57:50] MATT: you could not be more right. [00:57:51] MATT: You're absolutely right. We are all passing on this great, you know, green and blue ball of gas around a sun. Yes, we do have, we have more in common than we don't, but it's, it can be hard sometimes to find those commonalities. But stories and conversations help. [00:58:10] BARRY: And the meritocracy and all that stuff that comes from those questions that betray status, like you're trying to find out somebody's status, whether they're good at something or bad at something. [00:58:22] BARRY: All that is kind of just beyond what the original question is about, which is just wanting to connect, you know? [00:58:33] Fawn: Well, with that, at the risk of, cutting into silence, I am going to [00:58:37] BARRY: say How much dead air can we get into this podcast? That's what I'm trying to do. [00:58:43] MATT: She's going to edit [00:58:44] Fawn: it out. I don't know. I think I'm going to leave it. I'm going to leave it. That's where all the [00:58:53] BARRY: questions come from. They come from silence. [00:59:01] Fawn: Anyways. Thank you so much, Barry. Yes, indeed. For being with us. We love you so much. And we love all of you. Love you guys. Who are listening. Love you so much, Barry. All right, well, we shall speak in just a few days. And we're always here if you need to talk to us or if you need us. We're here. Reach out to us. [00:59:23] Fawn: Have a beautiful every day. Talk to you soon. Be well. Thanks, Barry. welcome.