FAWN: [00:00:00] As we remember what a true friend is, one thing they are not. A true friend isn't just someone who comforts you. A real friend lovingly reflects back who you really are, including your blind spots, your strengths, your untapped potential. Love without truth is indulgent. It's indulgence. Truth without love is cruelty. Friendship requires both. Some questions for today. Why does flattery damage friendship? What is the difference between support and enabling? Why is it the people who challenge us are the ones who may love us the most? How can we correct someone without shaming them? What makes feedback feel safe instead of threatening? Thanks for joining us. Here we go. Welcome back to our friendly world, everybody. Hello. [00:01:00] Hi. So these are the questions for today. MATT: Oh my goodness. Should FAWN: we, should we start with the number one? Sure. I mean, yeah, love without truth is indulgence. It's, it's like, it's like the conversation we were having today, Matt, about how we're so spent. We're so, um, we are holding so much because there's so much information that we're getting that w- what's the, what's the term called that AI is making us stupid? Um, there's a term for it. MATT: Cognitive decline? FAWN: Yeah, cognitive decline. Was there another term though? MATT: Speaking of. FAWN: Oh no. Do you think I have it? MATT: Well, they're, they're saying that we're, we're getting it as, as a, as a species. FAWN: Well, it just feels that there's so much information that I, I started to think of junk food Like, what do you call it? Um, [00:02:00] not takeout food. What do you call it? Like- Fast food. Fast food. Fast food. There's so much information, and it is fast, and there's so much of it, and it's like eating empty calories. It's like eating the most hideous junk food, and you're full, and your body starts swelling up and not functioning properly, and you're still hungry. So the same is happening with information. There's so much that we're taking in that there's no room for anything else. Well, there's, there's no room for- So we're becoming obese there's MATT: no room for wisdom. FAWN: Right. MATT: We don't-- We're not reflecting on the things that we learn. We're not- Right ... uh, w- they're shaping us certainly, but, but how and why? FAWN: So a bunch of empty calories that are destroying our everything, but on an intellectual- Right ... level and a spiritual level, and then trickles down to the physical level because it affects friendship. It, [00:03:00] it affects all kinds of, um, uh, what do you call them? That we have. Relationships. Oh my God. What? Oh MATT: dear, folks. FAWN: Matt just- Oh dear ... put his head in his hands. Oh dear. I'm also tired, I think. MATT: Little information overload there? FAWN: That and I don't know. There's a lot going on, which is what's happening. There's a lot going... It's too much, guys, which is why I just, my last post , on Instagram was, " Maybe we all need a nap," right? MATT: Maybe. FAWN: So, anyway, that's my thought on that part, that love without truth is indulgence. But it, it just made me think we're indulging so much on information, wrong information, or any information. May- maybe MATT: it's wrong, maybe it isn't. Maybe it's- Right ... true, but it's only true for a small slice. You know, you can slice and dice things however you want, you know? And every FAWN: time we get stressed, we turn to it some more because we need to take our [00:04:00] mind off of whatever it is, or we think, "Well, let me get more information on, let me find out what that is." Or you're going to look up something that you need for like a recipe maybe, and then all of a sudden, before you know it, you've spent 30 minutes not even remembering to look up the recipe, but you've been hijacked into looking at some other thing, right? That now you're upset about. Right. Right? So, um, that's my take on that first one. And then truth without love is cruelty. Yeah. I can tell our kids, "Hey- What, what example can I use? MATT: That finger painting, just crap. FAWN: No, I would never MATT: say that. Well, exactly, because love. FAWN: No, no, no, because I think all their art is really amazing. No, um... All right, I-- Not that... Okay, let's say that outfit is beyond hideous- and seriously will get you in trouble. Like- ... because maybe it, [00:05:00] it's making, some sort of a political statement you, you're not aware of. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. You're walking into the wrong place, and it, it can affect you negatively. So instead of saying, "That outfit is hideous," maybe with love you can say something. And I can't think of how I would say it right now, 'cause I've been upset a lot lately, and my filter for, like, having a loving kindness kind of, uh, verbiage coming out of my mouth is not always there. Like, how would you say it, Matt? How would you kindly say a truth that could be hurtful? MATT: You'd be diploma- I would be diplomatic about it. I would say something like, "Wouldn't you rather wear da, da, da, da?" I don't know. That, it just seems- "Wouldn't it be nicer if you da, da, da, da?" And if they fight me, then you break it down and you start getting more and more real. FAWN: Well, I, I don't know. I just find that still manipulative. MATT: It is. FAWN: So I don't wanna do that. Right. I will... Okay, the way I normally would do [00:06:00] it is, " Baby, you are so beautiful. I love you so much. That outfit, you can't wear that." Would that work? Because that's how I talk. MATT: Right. That's how, that's how you talk. That's honestly how you talk. I wouldn't say it that way because I don't, that's not how I talk. FAWN: Okay. Well, I mean, as long as you feel the love, hopefully the love will be felt. Right. Hopefully. MATT: Right. FAWN: Unless, you know, I mean, hormones can get in the way no matter what you say or how you say it. And MATT: so can hunger. FAWN: Right. So people can still get mad at you regardless, but if you genuinely come from a place of love or have the intent of coming with love, and I think once you have the intent, I think it'll also translate through with love. Right. I also- Hopefully ... MATT: I also think that you, it's a, it's a constant, you know, having those interesting conversations the whole time, you know, and not stopping, and not not stopping, for that matter. FAWN: Well, one of the things that... Well, I'm sorry, could you repeat that, what you said? MATT: Well, that's [00:07:00] just it. I, you know, I, I try and, I try and own my inner Popeye. I try and just be me, right? And so the way I communicate sometimes comes across as blunt or mean-spirited, but people who know me understand that that's not the place that I'm coming from. FAWN: Well, it depends what state they're in. And that's true. Right? If they're tired- Right ... they're not gonna see that. Right. Right? And if MATT: I'm tired, I may deliver it even worse. FAWN: And if you're having your own inner dialogue of harshness- Mm-hmm ... then The outside world will just reflect what you're thinking from the inside. So you may think the person is really harsh with you and they're not, you know? MATT: Right. It's tricksy. It is tricksy, but that's just it. Uh, your friend should always be, you know, checking, correcting, taking a look for your own best interests. You know, I, I use my friends for sounding boards all the time. FAWN: Mm. [00:08:00] MATT: Uh, FAWN: I wanna get into identity, and I wanted to get into it later, but identity comes into this because love without truth is indulgence. Okay. So love without truth. If you're just gonna go along with someone, and this is one of the, my biggest, biggest problems right now, why I've lost so many friendships with, like, other parents, um, our kids' friends' parents. they're trying so hard to be cool that, they're saying things that are not okay and they're not truth just to seem cool in front of our kids, and I don't appreciate that. MATT: Right. FAWN: Identity comes into it because when you try to say something or try to express your point of view, no matter what, I think right now people's identities are so wrapped up in whatever they think is truth and it's forever, that they feel like their character [00:09:00] and their whole everything is being attacked because their identity, they're wrapping their identity onto, a term or a movement or a, a label. A label. A label to me is so empty. A human being is so much greater, infinite, Right ... of the divine. Right. I've lived my life- So you don't belong to a label ... MATT: in almost defiance of labels or the fact that there's such a multiplicity of labels you would have to assign me that'll, the labels don't make sense anymore. FAWN: Yeah, but the kids right now want one label. Right. They wanna be-- They, they're, they, they've been taught by society right now that unless you have that one label, then you're nothing. And if they feel challenged by that, my God, it is, you're suddenly the enemy. You are Like, they don't even know these terms, but that's when they [00:10:00] start spewing out hateful things, but th- the love without truth, that's really getting me lately. Anyway, let's just move on. So why flattery damages friendship. Again, going back to the same thing. If you're constantly just flattering, after the first few times, it just appears and is so evident that i- it's just fluff. Like, what are you really saying? It's like a recording that- Right ... that you're on hold and listening to a recording. Right. MATT: Right. Yeah. I have, I have a guy, a work acquaintance who keeps saying very nice things about me, but he doesn't know. He's not qualified to make the judgments he's making because he hasn't seen what I can do. Now, my God, am I smoke on the water, but he's never seen it because we don't work together. What does FAWN: that mean? Smoke on the water? MATT: Deep Purple song. It's one of those stupid Matt things, right? Um, I just mean, like, I'm that good. When I'm in my element, when I [00:11:00] embody what I do, my God, sometimes I'm like, "My God." He doesn't get a chance to, he doesn't get a chance to bear witness to that because I'm not working with him on anything. We just happen to be inhabiting the same workspace, and he's making assumptions, which makes it really hard for me to, um, uh, take his comments in any way seriously 'cause he's not qualified. He's t- to, to make these comments. FAWN: So you're saying they're superficial. MATT: They, they're superficial, yes. And you FAWN: know what? I kind of- And it, it does feel indulgent- I understand it, though ... but- I, I, I also understand it because it's their way to connect, but it stops there. Right. So how can we further connect after the flattery? Right. It's nice to be flattering someone. It's nice to receive a flattery. Mm-hmm. Um, but it has to be completely authentic, and there has to be more after that. Right. Not more flattery, but, like, deep, something deep- Right ... something [00:12:00] that connects us together. You know what I'm saying? Right. Some, some, uh, introspection and also, what's the other, what's the opposite of introspection? When you really look at someone and you really see who they are and appreciate them, that, whatever word is for that. Should we go on to the next one? MATT: Uh, well, I have to say that the way I fight that with him is that I'll ask him questions where I know it's his superpower And we'll have as deep of a conversation as I can have where it's his super- superpower. So it feels like when I compliment him, I come from a place of knowing. So it's entirely different. FAWN: Also, there's a great calm and great power in just being simple and not resorting to flattery. True. And not expecting it and not being flashy yourself. Mm-hmm. Just being simple and, and pure. MATT: True. FAWN: Simple. Make things easy. So next one? Sure. All right. [00:13:00] The difference between support and enabling., I have some friends that don't let me get away with anything. Like, I'll express how I'm feeling, and they're like, "That's not true." I'm like, "That's how I'm feeling!" And they're like, "Yeah, but it's not true. You're feeling a lie." Oh, dear. And one friend always says, um... i'm forgetting exactly how she says it, but just because you feel it doesn't mean it's a fact MATT: right. FAWN: A friend who just wants to please you because they just wanna be your friend, they'll agree with whatever you're saying, and that doesn't get you anywhere. MATT: Well, at, at some point- That's FAWN: like a ChatGPT saying, "Yeah." MATT: At some point it rings hollow for sure, and especially- Rings hollow ... in this day and age, because I can find an echo chamber if I believe that, uh, the world is flat or the dark side of the moon has a secret military base or, you know, pick gravity doesn't exist. Let's go there because that's, I think, one we can [00:14:00] all agree on. Um, I can find a place where maybe gravity doesn't exist or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can find people who believe that, and I can live in that echo chamber. But I want to be able to trust that if I'm stepping in a challenging way, that, that they challenge me as far as, "What are you doing?" Mm-hmm. "Are you sure this is what you wanna do?" Mm-hmm. "Because of this, this, this, this, and this." FAWN: Right. MATT: And I respect the, the heck out of that, and maybe we'll get in a fight, and then I'll cool down and we'll make up. Life is simple. FAWN: Ready for the next one? The people who may be challenging you may be the ones who actually love you the most. I can say with friendship, yes, but also, like, right now I'm thinking of parenthood. I have to challenge the kids to a thought, and they don't like it, and we can get into a fight. But- I actually love them so much, but I'm challenging them because I am seeing some [00:15:00] not good stuff. So they may feel like I'm the devil or I'm, like, completely in the wrong, but I'm coming at, at, not at them, but I'm here. I'm here. Don't laugh. I'm serious, Matt. I know, babe. But I'm here with pure love, like pure love and protection, right? Right. But to them, it's an obstacle or a challenge maybe. Um, I'm, I can't... Right now I'm just in such, such motherhood that I can't really relate to friendship here. But again, like my friends who will constantly challenge me and not agree with me, I can, again, relate it to that. Well, MATT: challenges strengthen your beliefs or they completely change your beliefs. But one of the two, and, and if your beliefs never get challenged, then what do you know? FAWN: I mean, sometimes we have to [00:16:00] wake up because maybe, not maybe, but, like, we can't be right all the time. Sometimes we're wrong about something and we don't know it. If we knew it, we wouldn't be wrong about it. You know what I'm saying? MATT: I do. FAWN: All right. So how to correct someone without shaming them, that's a challenge. MATT: Well, I always feel like I have to earn the right to do it. I can't just out of the gate clobber somebody on a core belief. FAWN: But, but also it's so out of our control, like I said, because people's identities are wrapped in some idea, not themselves. MATT: Right. FAWN: That all you have to do is, like, have a look on your face or not be nodding profusely in, in, in recognition and in, in a state of, "I agree with you completely, 100 million percent." If they don't feel that, then [00:17:00] they feel threatened and they feel that shame, and you haven't even said anything. It's difficult now with that. I think that is a dangerous point we're at in our society right now about this whole we're not even trying to correct someone, or if you do correct someone, boy, can you get in trouble right now. Yes. MATT: That is definitely true. But the, I think the real trick is, um, case in point, gas station. Case in point, I'm vegan. Case in point, Mr. Wizard loves to say, "You eat sticks and rocks, and that's what you eat." You know? But I walk my path, and you know what? They're listening now They, they don't just immediately dismiss. And I'm just walking my path. When they ask me a question, I answer it, and I answer it truthfully and honestly. I don't go out of my way to say, "I'm vegan," because that just annoys everybody. I think, yeah. But I don't avoid it either, ever. FAWN: [00:18:00] Well, you just said something, one word: question. To pose a question, I think, is the way to go, but you have to be really careful about how you pose the question. So to ask like you're a, a curious child that knows nothing. And who cares if they think you're ignorant? But, like, I think by correcting someone in a way that doesn't shame them, I think the key to that is to ask innocently, "What is this about? Can you explain this to me?" Like, "I don't understand. Can you explain that to me?" Or, like, maybe start the conversation that way with a genuine, honest, like, without any ego or any charge on the question. MATT: Right. FAWN: And I think that can help for someone to not feel shame. MATT: And inside of a friendship, like I'm con- I'm constantly going through stuff. But no, I have a friend who keeps coming at me and asking me [00:19:00] questions in such a way that if I wasn't delicate in my answer, that we would start to enter into that whole alpha-beta friendship, which I, I don't want. I don't wanna have that anymore. You know? That, that was all well and good in, when I was a teenager and later, but it seems exhausting now. And so it's, it's about taking what they give you, and there's a question wrapped in it, and go, "Huh." And then, you know, in, in some cases it's like I never thought of it that way. In some cases it's I can totally see why you would think that. This is what I think, not what I know. This is what I think. I'm not gonna throw it down like I know everything. And then I'm gonna bounce questions back to them. I'm gonna ask them questions about stuff that I don't know very much about, that I know is their s- is their superpower. It's about trying to maintain that kind of balance as far as who feels like in control, not in control. It's [00:20:00] like I just wanna be friends. I don't wanna, I don't wanna play politics here. Politics is for work. It's not for here. It's not for friendship. FAWN: Well, I think that that answers the next one, which is the last one. What makes feedback feel safe instead of threatening? It's exactly what you just said. But, you know, you have to come at it feeling anchored yourself, feeling whole and rested yourself. Mm-hmm. Because you have to slow things down- Right .. For there not to be any threat perceived, right? MATT: Right. And, and you're not trying to, like, shred a core belief. FAWN: And you have to do that slowly and methodically, and sometimes we're in a rush, sometimes we're tired, sometimes we're caught off guard. So boy, like- And, and sometimes we feel like- ... it's tricky ... MATT: we don't have a lot of time to speak, is the other thing, and that's the one that's been getting me lately. Oh my goodness. I was in a big team call, and I'm a nobody. [00:21:00] It's not accurate. Don't say I am- I know ... and then say that. I know. I'm, I'm, I'm the new guy who doesn't, who doesn't know how things have been. I, I don't have the history lessons. I don't have the way they've evolved to get to where they are. But I'm making some awful bold statements, and it's a mistake, and I'm trying to make them in short bursts. But it's like this is stuff I've thought about and thought about and thought about, and this is the succinct thought, but my God is it challenging to get there. Yeah, I get it. And we have to be very patient. FAWN: Yeah. E- even on a photo shoot, I had a photo shoot. I've been shooting almost every day, and these people were seriously so slow and not understanding anything and not listening. And so I had to become like a drill sergeant, and you can't do that completely because you need the people to feel loved and, happy to get a pretty photo from them if you're doing portraits, which I was at that [00:22:00] second. I mean, there is no time and I do feel rushed, and sometimes , the drill sergeant comes out, and it can come out, you get the job done, and immediately you say something positive. Like, "There you are. I see the rock star out now. There you g- that's it. That's what I'm looking for. Gorgeous. Thank you." And then leave. Heyo. Which is what I did. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And I, and I knew I was being a drill sergeant. I knew I was being harsh. They weren't listening. They weren't following directions. I had a few seconds to get the shot for the client, and they weren't playing. You know, they weren't, they weren't cooperating. Right. I had to do it. But I also, as soon as I did it, I wanted them, I wanted to leave it on a good note. Mm-hmm. On a positive note. So I left it on a positive note of, "We did it. You're [00:23:00] gorgeous. Thank you for your time. Bye." MATT: There you go. FAWN: And thank you for your time. I'm done. Do you have anything else to add? MATT: I'm good. FAWN: Okay. we'll talk to you in a few days. MATT: Be well. FAWN: Have a beautiful every day.