Episode Transcript
Don't Take the Bait
[00:00:00] FAWN: Ah. Oh man. Okay, Matt. Hello. Can you Hi. Hi, friends. Hello everyone. Matt, do you know how a bait works or what a bait is? Can you define it for me? What's bait?
[00:00:17] MATT: Either like when you go fishing,
[00:00:19] FAWN: Yeah,
[00:00:19] MATT: it's something you put in the water to attract
[00:00:22] FAWN: fish. But what is it that makes them attracted to the bait?
[00:00:27] FAWN: It's food,
[00:00:28] MATT: and
[00:00:29] FAWN: it's a small morsel or something Shiny.
[00:00:32] MATT: Small morsel, something shiny. Uh, with fish sometimes it's alive, which is kind of weird. So it, it moves. But basically it's an attractant.
[00:00:42] FAWN: So it's a little thing to have you take a bite so it can take you. Yes. So it's a trickery thing.
[00:00:49] MATT: It's a, oh, big time.
[00:00:51] FAWN: All right, so yesterday I ran out of the house crying to get away from all of you guys. You all were really like, I was, I could feel it the days before. Have you all ever felt this, like, you really need to cry and it's like things have been building up, or maybe you cleared a bunch of stuff and you just need a release. And crying is so great for that.
[00:01:16] FAWN: It's like a thunderstorm that just cleans away all the smog and the dirt, and then when the rain stops, the birds are back and you can smell the deliciousness in the air again. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. For me, crying is that way, but I was feeling like I couldn't cry.
[00:01:37] FAWN: There was so much energy that was building that I knew if I had a good cry it would go away, but I'd never had the opportunity to cry. Sometimes there's just so much happening that you are not afforded the, relaxation time or the safety to feel like, okay, I can release it now. Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:02:01] FAWN: Or sometimes you get to a point where you're still not feeling safe, but you just cry. I used to do that when I was younger, but that doesn't happen anymore. Like, I don't know, because I'm just like sucking it up. You know what I'm saying? That. The tears don't flow the way they used to. And I wish they did cuz I'm holding a lot of pressure.
[00:02:21] FAWN: Why are you looking at me so confused. Oh, it's
[00:02:23] MATT: just, I mean I, it feels like I cry at the drop of a hat now, so that's
[00:02:27] FAWN: good for you. You need that. I'm glad. I think we're like switch, we switched roles. Well, you
[00:02:32] MATT: just need to listen to nevermind.
[00:02:34] FAWN: No, it doesn't work. Like usually like there was one movie now for the last so many years now, the just the first few
[00:02:44] FAWN: notes of the movies soundtrack will immediately usually make me cry. That doesn't happen anymore. Now I just get frustrated or like sad or upset. The tears don't flow the way they did, like I said. But anyway, so when I was out yesterday, when I escaped you guys in the house, boy you did, everything was bothering me.
[00:03:05] FAWN: Like I just let you guys have it like. But letting you know how I was feeling like, this is not fair. I'm, I've had it with you all, you know, so I, I went away and I had some time. I went to several places because you asked me, where'd you go? I'm like, none of your business basically. None yet. What did I say?
[00:03:28] FAWN: I said, what did I say? I didn't even wanna tell you. Right. It was like my own special thing. Right. I'm tired of like you guys being all over me, you know what I'm saying? And taking me for granted and it was like, I don't even wanna tell you, it was my own thing. It just had to go away.
[00:03:43] FAWN: But while I was away, some information came to me, some pieces of advice came to me from two different sources while I was out. And I wanna share with you right now what those were because. It will help in so many ways. So this is about bait. Don't take the bait is the message that I kept getting. So I was standing there towards the end of like my feeling like I needed to get away.
[00:04:15] FAWN: I started to get closer to home and I ran into a friend of mine. A friend of ours, actually, Kathy thank you Kathy. I love how my friendship is blossoming with this beautiful woman. She is amazing, and as our friendship grows, the wisdom that she's sharing with me is I'm so appreciative of like it is beyond.
[00:04:39] FAWN: Helpful. It is so lovely. And that's the kind of friendship I've been looking for. Someone where you don't really have to talk a lot, but like you can just look at each other and understand things.
[00:04:51] MATT: Totally. Yeah. And the fact that you're kind of breaking through that kind of first level of friendship.
[00:04:57] MATT: Which I've been thinking about an interesting amount lately, but go ahead.
[00:05:00] FAWN: So it's growing and it, and it grew from just like, would you like to have a cup of tea with me? You know, and we did that over and over again and mm-hmm. And we would have the best talks. And now, so like yesterday, I barely said anything and she said, listen to me.
[00:05:17] FAWN: I'm gonna share with you a piece of advice. And the way she said it, I was still crying, so I don't remember exactly the words. I had to. At night, text her back and go, tell me what words you used. And I had 'em all wrong. And she's like, don't take the bait. I'm like, oh my God. That's not at all what I thought you said.
[00:05:34] FAWN: Like, do you know what I'm saying? I was trying to think of the words she said so I could write it in my notebook. So I wrote it down, Don't take the bait. And she explained to me, What and how it is. Like what is a bait and how to handle a bait. Now, mind you, I was, like I said, I was crying while she was giving me this advice.
[00:05:55] FAWN: The advice was totally being seeped into my soul. Mm-hmm. So I understood what she was saying. I understood the feeling. But then when it came down to writing it all down again, I lost the words that she said. You know, so that's why I texted her. But I still, like, I remember like in specific terms, like talking about exactly what the situation was that made me upset where she said, don't take the bait.
[00:06:23] FAWN: She gave examples of why people do this, and she explained it to me beautifully. I got it. And so, Today I went to research more of it, like what is this bait situation? What is bait and how do we deal with it? I looked it up and I found an article that says, how do you deal with someone who's baiting you?
[00:06:48] FAWN: I looked up bait. I was trying to understand what it meant and what other people were saying about it. And I found this one article written by Lauren Sanders
[00:06:57] FAWN: The website is training industry.com and she had a blog entry. The title is "Don't Take the Bait -seven strategies for dealing with toxic people." And I'm not saying you guys were toxic and, but, but I liked this article. No, no buts. I like you just said, but okay. No buts. I like this article. Let's just leave the toxic part out of it.
[00:07:21] FAWN: Mm-hmm. Cause I mean, it is toxic, like bait is toxic. It's taking you to a situation that you shouldn't be in. It's going to take away your life basically, or your life force. It's taking away your energy. It's a little bit of something that will suck you into where you shouldn't be,
[00:07:41] FAWN: right. So how do you deal with someone who is baiting you? Just don't take the bait, don't argue with a person. the advice I was getting was don't take the bait, don't argue with a person or appeal to their sense of reason or logic while they're ab baiting you, they want you to. It says they want you to rise to it.
[00:08:03] FAWN: And I feel like rise isn't a good word for it cuz it's like sucking you to something. It's not like Right. They want to drag you down to their level. Yeah. It's not rising, it's not good energy to rise up, you know? But that's what it said. It says don't retaliate and fall into a trap, which is what Kathy was basically telling me, but in a different way.
[00:08:24] FAWN: And so there are some people that enjoy rattling others. And then there are people in your lives that are going through a hard time and don't know how to navigate, and they may lash out at you because you are a safe target. With unconditional love. Any moms or dads out there who have kids. So this is what happened to me.
[00:08:48] FAWN: Like I was the safe. I don't know if target is the right word. I was a safe place for one of our kids to totally lash out. Now they're going through it, they're trying to maneuver through new things. You know, things are confusing. There are lots of emotions and hormones that are changing and everything is just completely changing.
[00:09:11] FAWN: Right, right. And emotions are high. So no matter how much I support and love and respect and do everything I get lashed out at. So that's when I just, I just start crying. And that's when I left. I feel like I just need some time to myself. So I left. And so, so these are the things that came to mind was what is really happening. And I could see it and yeah, I got baited, but I also got triggered, right?
[00:09:44] FAWN: And so I wanna discuss today what the difference is between getting baited and being triggered. Perhaps I got triggered because I'm tired, man. I understand what our kids are going through, but I'm a human being also. And this doesn't just go for parents. I mean, you have friends that there are people who have so much on their plates, and they don't know how to express themselves. It's not just with kids, it's with everyone. Sometimes you have no way to cry. I couldn't cry, and I needed some way to be set free of this, like this bubble that was inside of me, right? That could be burst by crying, like let the bothersome energy leave me, and it usually leaves me through crying and I couldn't do that.
[00:10:38] FAWN: And so there are people who are struggling, we're all struggling, and I think that you can be a better friend by realizing not to take any baits, but also not being harsh in your way of saying, I'm not gonna take your bait. We're all going through hardship.
[00:10:58] FAWN: We're all through stuff. And to be, I think, a good friend sometimes you can realize, okay, they are baiting me, but I really love this person and I don't have to take what they're saying. I don't have to get involved. Like we were talking about martial arts and the art of the empty jacket, right?
[00:11:19] FAWN: So, It's not so nice when all of a sudden they're handed in an empty jacket. But if you can go towards what Aikido taught us was like you embrace the person that's attacking you in a way that doesn't harm yourself or them. You're there to protect them. They're out of harmony. Can you explain that whole process again?
[00:11:41] FAWN: That whole situation, if someone is attacking you, it's because they're off balance and it's your job to protect your attacker. That's what we learned in our martial arts school.
[00:11:51] MATT: Exactly. It's about circling. If they have a weapon, you disarm them without hurting them, but not hurting yourself
[00:11:59] MATT: certainly either. And if they go to do something bad to you, then unfortunately the techniques in Aikido will break a wrist or break an arm or break a leg. But if they don't wanna take it that far, then they will just go down on the ground and you can get away safely. But, and then there's this whole sense of when you're actually in the process of somebody executing a move on you, it can almost be like wrapping you in a big blanket.
[00:12:29] MATT: It actually feels good.
[00:12:30] FAWN: It can feel good. Absolutely. I mean, that's how, like if you were a true black belt, well, there's different techniques they made you, well, our school, it made you feel good. So like if I was attacking you mm-hmm. You would, and if you were like the major black belt in that line of school, that line, that lineage mm-hmm.
[00:12:51] FAWN: Of Aikido, cuz there was two. More than two, but yes, there was more than two. Well, I was taught that there, there was the hard style and the soft style. We were in the soft style. Yes. We were. And we operated only energetically. Right. Not with muscle. Right. So when I was taught by our teachers, cuz you know, I came into the school wanting to break some stuff.
[00:13:09] FAWN: Mm-hmm. And so they were like, no, he, so they made me attack them on purpose for me to feel what it's like right as the attacker. And it felt like, Being a little kid and having a loving uncle or something swing you, twirl you around like wee and eventually you're in an embrace and yet maybe you are on the ground and maybe they do have your, you know, like it's all controlled.
[00:13:36] FAWN: But like they taught me and you taught me too, Matt, was not to hurt the person's ego or their body.
[00:13:44] MATT: Right. Well, yeah. The half of the goal is on some level not to get emotionally connected to their stuff.
[00:13:52] FAWN: Exactly. So not taking the bait. So,
[00:13:55] MATT: and, and you know, not being upset at this person for attacking you, cuz of course there's a million different things.
[00:14:01] MATT: Right. But a tense muscle is a slow muscle. And also, people are much more likely to get hurt.
[00:14:07] FAWN: Okay, so I'm gonna get back to this particular article that was written by Lauren Sanders and Matt didn't know what we were gonna talk about today because I want, I totally wanted no notes on the part of Matt, so like we could have a real frank discussion.
[00:14:23] FAWN: So what I'm gonna do is go over the seven things that Lauren Sanders said in her blog, and if we could just break it down. Okay. So step number one for the seven strategies of dealing with the bait. Basically the article again is called Don't Take the Bait. Seven Strategies for Dealing With Toxic People.
[00:14:45] FAWN: Number one:
[00:14:46] FAWN: your reaction matters.
[00:14:48] FAWN: Know your boundaries and set them up front. If the person at your office focuses on negativity and plays the victim, they're looking for an ally, don't take the bait. And then Lauren was like, you should ask them like what their outcome is. Like what, what is their intent?
[00:15:06] FAWN: Like, how did they play a role in this thing that they're telling you about? Right? So to make them think about it. So that was step number one, is your reaction matters. And getting back to Aikido, you know, or martial arts period, like when I was studying at a different school, cross training, and I would be sparring.
[00:15:26] FAWN: I've told you guys this before, but like when I thought that I was winning, even though I was getting hit a lot, um, I thought I was winning because with every punch I was getting more angry and I felt more energized, like ready to seek revenge with my next punch. Right? And every time that happened, the black belt that I was sparring with would just smile and say, you're losing.
[00:15:53] FAWN: I'm like, no, I'm not.
[00:15:54] MATT: Which would just get you more and more upset? Well,
[00:15:56] FAWN: more emotionally connected, for sure, for sure. Like, what do you mean I'm getting more energy. I'm gonna kick your ass, and she said to me, no, because you're leaking energy. You are too emotional. You're getting emotional.
[00:16:08] FAWN: And when you get emotional, you lose. And that teaching right there has stayed with me forever, I hope. So I think that's what it means. Like your reaction matters, really taking a look at how you're reacting to something. Any thoughts on this. And
[00:16:25] MATT: also choosing not to get directly involved.
[00:16:32] MATT: There's a certain sense of emotional detachment almost in that, to me. You know, I remember there was an incident. Oh my goodness. And you know, you, you think later about, wow, that could have gone really wrong. I was returning from lunch and this woman who worked at my office, who I barely knew, had some drama with her boyfriend.
[00:16:52] MATT: Her boyfriend was in a car and she was like, stop him. And like, what was I gonna do? Get in front of his car? Oh heck no. And I did not, but at the time I was like, I should have done that. And looking back, I'm like, no, why do I wanna be a participant in whatever's going on here?
[00:17:10] FAWN: Right, right. And the bait was emotional, like wanting to save the
[00:17:17] MATT: day, the gallant response.
[00:17:19] MATT: Absolutely.
[00:17:20] FAWN: So, okay, so should I go to the next one? Next.
[00:17:23] FAWN: Number two: no explanation needed. She says if someone is demeaning you, I don't have her exact quote on this, but basically if they're saying things that are making you feel less than mm-hmm. They're demeaning you, you just come back with something like, thanks for sharing. And, you know, basically that's it. And then you just walk away. She says it's hard to have an argument with someone who's not pushing back, which is back to what we were saying with the empty jacket, right?
[00:17:53] FAWN: Yeah. But let, let me finish. Hold on, hold on. Hold your thought. Hold on to your thought. So it's hard to have an argument with someone who's not pushing back and, and then this is what I, I think is it takes a lot of energy to push back. You're fighting a battle where you will not be heard is actually what she said.
[00:18:12] FAWN: And this is what we talk about all the time. Why there is so much conflict is because people are not seen or heard, but. When you are being baited, when you are in a conflict, in a situation where they're demeaning you or they're trying to get you to get all riled up or you're talking with someone about, for example, like certain people we talk about in our family, like, who don't hear us at all, right?
[00:18:42] FAWN: Why do we even bother telling them stuff because they don't hear us at all. So it takes a lot of energy to push back. Again, here's the quote, you're fighting a battle where you will not be heard. So why are you wasting your life force? Any thoughts?
[00:19:00] MATT: Well, that circles back to the infamous, so my, fill in the blank.
[00:19:05] MATT: My cable company, cell phone provider, sewage company, electric company. So, Is doing bad things to me or what I perceive to be bad things to me. So let me call up customer service line and complain, which may or may not make me feel any better. It never makes you feel better, folks, because the people you really wanna talk to are never gonna be on the other side of that phone.
[00:19:30] MATT: But you know, so I always talk about saving your venom for the right
[00:19:33] FAWN: person. But remember when I was having difficulty with the yoga bitches? Mm-hmm. And the head of the yoga school was incredibly hateful. Right. And racist. Right. Yet everybody loved her. She was like the guru and how dare, how dare I ever even say anything otherwise, like she was awful to me.
[00:19:56] FAWN: Awful. And, and then, you know, the other people started to behave the way she did. And I felt like I was completely, it's a long story guys. I don't wanna relive this all over again. But it was not an okay situation. It was incredibly, hard to be going in that school and practicing yoga of all things while I felt like they were totally berating me.
[00:20:23] FAWN: When they thought I wasn't listening, that I couldn't hear them saying awful things about me. Right. And basically they were racist that I'll just say that. I just don't wanna say talk about it anymore, but, of course they didn't think that they were. And so I would talk to the family about it.
[00:20:40] FAWN: I would talk to you guys about it. Mm-hmm. And you always told me, you're never gonna get satisfaction. True. Because I was like, okay, well let me go have a private conversation with her. Maybe they don't realize what they're doing, but it would be a teachable moment. Right. For me and for them. You're absolutely right.
[00:20:56] FAWN: It would be for me to finally speak up for myself and go, you know, these actions mean this to me. Right. And to other people who look like me. These words, these actions are not okay. And so, you know, we, we thought about, we, I rehearsed it with you guys to make sure that I had, didn't have a lot of energy.
[00:21:15] FAWN: Mm-hmm. That it was, I was just calm, calmly saying, you know, just like how I'm talking right now and this tone of voice, these, these actions mean this for me. These actions mean this for people of color like me. And, and you said you're never gonna get any satisfaction. And I did go to the source, which sounds terrible, but you just said go to the the source.
[00:21:38] FAWN: Terrible. But back then you said you'll never get satisfaction, and you were right. And you said be prepared for, well, what did you say? Basically you told me you'll be met with a wall of denial
[00:21:53] MATT: because when it's one-on-one, I was talking about companies, but one-on-one. Mm-hmm. You know, people believe.
[00:22:00] MATT: Everybody believes that they act morally, and this is even the most despicable people in history fill in the blank. They all believe that they act mor acted morally. Take your pick any like obviously terrible person. They all believe they acted morally and you know, It's hard to get through that.
[00:22:19] MATT: It's not impossible, but it's really, really, really, really hard. And odds are you're gonna be the rule and not the exception. So you will not get through. Now what's the first technique of Aikido?
[00:22:33] FAWN: Um, I think it was. I don't know. Tell me, run away. What
[00:22:40] MATT: if you can run away from a confrontation? You run away from a confrontation.
[00:22:46] MATT: Okay.
[00:22:47] FAWN: You have to put it in a better, better
[00:22:49] MATT: terms, though. It doesn't, it doesn't have to be dignified. It doesn't have nothing. If you can get away from a bad situation, that's what you
[00:22:58] FAWN: do. See, the way I was taught was. Punch, break and run away.
[00:23:04] MATT: Well, yes. If you can't just run away, just run away, then yeah, you're gonna have to do something to dissuade them from chasing after you.
[00:23:13] MATT: But if you could run away, you, that's what you do.
[00:23:15] FAWN: Wait, so how is this related to what we were saying? Well,
[00:23:18] MATT: again, run away from what, instead of getting into the confrontation.
[00:23:23] FAWN: Mm-hmm. Just run away. So are you saying that I should have run away or I'm I'm saying that's this is what the person was trying to do.
[00:23:30] MATT: That's not, no, that's probably in this case, because you didn't get satisfaction. Mm-hmm. Running away is not a bad
[00:23:37] FAWN: option. Well, I did have to run away. I disappeared. Right. I disappeared from the entire school and even the people that were friends that turned out not to be friends because they couldn't understand.
[00:23:49] FAWN: What was happening to me, right. So I'm like, I can't be around that. Right? Um, but having done that, I was looked at as, as crazy cuz you know, two years later I tried to tell the woman again, like, Hey, I hope you you, because it was two years after that was what happened with like, The country started to see mm-hmm.
[00:24:13] FAWN: More people started to see what was really happening. Right. With, with actions. They started to see how racism is so out there and like, you know, more people were starting to take some responsibility for the way they spoke or you know, the things that they ignored.
[00:24:32] FAWN: So I'm like, maybe she gets it now. Maybe. And she didn't. She, she basically said, I'm crazy and look at you, and you just got rid of all your friends and no one understands why. I'm like, no one, I tried to explain to everybody why I left or why I was going to leave actually. Right. I just left. I made it very clear like, I can't be around this and this is what it is.
[00:24:58] FAWN: So anyway, so that was no explanation needed. That was number two. After a while, just don't even, you don't need to explain anymore. Bye. Just get outta that situation.
[00:25:11] FAWN: So number three is buy time. Lauren Sanders says you don't have to join every battle you're invited to.
[00:25:21] FAWN: You can step away and ask yourself privately if there's anything accurate or useful to you in what the person is saying. You don't have to fight every battle you're invited to. It makes me think of what we talked about many episodes ago about the art of a gift ,that you'll be gifted things.
[00:25:44] FAWN: Gifts come in many forms. You don't have to accept everything that's given to you. You can say no thank you. A gift could be an insult. A gift could be a jewel. You don't have to take it all. You can choose what you would like to receive, right? Yes, yes.
[00:26:07] FAWN: So again, you can step away and ask yourself privately if there's anything accurate or useful to you in what the person is saying. Yeah, any insights on that? On buying time, basically it's basically stepping away. Yeah, exactly. You, you don't have to react. You, you have the option. It's, you control everything. True.
[00:26:29] MATT: Yeah. I had a moment, years ago where one of the people I was working with, I didn't feel pulled their weight.
[00:26:35] MATT: I felt it was my responsibility to tell my boss because outside appearances would, might lead one to believe that they were, but basically they were just all over me at the time, and it, it was about picking the right moment and saying the right thing, and then saying, when they met me with the brick wall exactly as you described, that's what I got met with.
[00:26:58] MATT: I said, okay, fine, but just do this for me. And it was an objective thing. Just watch and see what, what is going on. And that's it. Obviously I'm mistaken, obviously I'm missing something because at that point I wasn't ever gonna win. So that was the best I could do. Plus, I didn't really want to win. I didn't wanna lose
[00:27:18] FAWN: weird world.
[00:27:20] FAWN: You know the thing about that, they put up? Mm-hmm. You know, like the wall of denial. Right after that, I've noticed there's the wall of denial and immediately is an attack, so they'll deny it. For example, at the yoga studio, I explained and gave them my notes about like the things that were said to me, the things that I overheard mm-hmm.
[00:27:43] FAWN: That were said about me. Right. The actions that were taken on a daily basis towards me. Mm-hmm. I was met with, no, none of this is true. And they like you. Everyone loves you, fawn. And immediately the next sentence was, well, they've been compl complaining about you actually. I'm like, wait a minute. I was thinking in my head, you just told me everybody loves me and all this is wrong.
[00:28:09] FAWN: And then all of a sudden you're also telling me people have been complaining about me. That's interesting. Like. What? You know, I don't know. So I, I just, what do you think? Like, usually there's wall of denial with an immediate punch. There can be. Yes. So watch out for that. Expect that as like a maneuver that happens.
[00:28:34] FAWN: Right. Would you say that I was not alone in, in that kind of reception, that Well, certainly people have like this hidden punch that will come out of the blue. Right.
[00:28:43] MATT: The best defense is a strong offense.
[00:28:45] FAWN: Mm-hmm. A block and a punch. I mean, it's a tactic in martial arts. You block and punch at the same time, but that was totally spiritual and verbal.
[00:28:55] FAWN: Okay, so number four. Can I move on to number four? Yes. All right. Number four, manage your truth. Comments, statements and opinions are often the truth of the person giving them, you know, your truth. Know your strengths and weaknesses and be honest with yourself. Your truth and someone else's truth may not be the same.
[00:29:19] FAWN: Focus on your actions not theirs,
[00:29:22] FAWN: and never allow your yourself to start with negative self-talk. Like, in my case with the yoga studio, yeah. I went to negative self-talk. Like, yeah, I'm a I I'm not liked and it's all my fault, whatever. You know? Right? Like, no, no. Remember who you are. You know who you are. Stay in your truth. Stay in your truth.
[00:29:48] FAWN: Never allow yourself to start with a negative self-talk,
[00:29:52] MATT: and when you start to notice yourself doing that. Bring yourself back to center. You know, to me that's really the core to everything is know thy, as Socrates said, know
[00:30:02] FAWN: thyself. Right? And like for me, I'm a mom. I will be the mom. I'll take the blows from my kid, but I have to know why the blows are happening, what's my part in it, but also what is this child going through to feel like they need to explode in this way?
[00:30:23] FAWN: Right? It's not, is it me that is really causing them trouble or is it because they feel this trouble in the world and they're just lashing out at me because they can't lash out to other people or situations in life, I'm the safe option for them to let it out, right? So I have to know myself and know, no, I support my kid a hundred percent no matter what.
[00:30:48] FAWN: So if they say what they're saying, they need to say it to the world. Maybe I'm the safe place for them to test out saying that. But I know who I am, I know my love, I know my truth, so I'll stand in that, but I'm not gonna take that bait from this kid and start arguing and saying, no, I'm not, you know what I'm saying?
[00:31:07] FAWN: Right. Like, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's not how it is. I love you and I support you, don't take the bait. And that goes with friendships. That goes with all relationships.
[00:31:18] FAWN: Should I go on to the next one or do you wanna say something? Go, go. Okay. Number five, judgment doesn't help. It says, Operate from a place of curiosity and respect. Again, it says, know who you are and operate from that place every time you encounter a toxic person.
[00:31:39] FAWN: Do not assume their intent is negative. Instead, ask questions to understand the root of the issue. While you do that, See the first step again? What was the first step? Don't take the bait.
[00:31:55] FAWN: Don't argue. Don't waste your energy. Right, right. Should I read that again? Judgment doesn't help. Operate from a place of curiosity and respect. Know who you are and operate from that place every time you encounter a toxic person. Do not assume their intent is negative. Instead, ask questions to understand the root of the issue.
[00:32:17] FAWN: While you do that, see the first step again, don't take the bait.
[00:32:22] MATT: Which is, which is interesting because I can remember, meeting someone who was immediately hostile, immediately made as assumptions. I was out. It was, I think me and our youngest and these people, no, maybe it was more than that, and these people came over.
[00:32:42] MATT: To tell us that the way we were living wasn't quite right.
[00:32:46] FAWN: Who was this? Where was this?
[00:32:48] MATT: This was a, this was a while ago, and it doesn't matter where it was wh where was I? I don't know. Maybe you weren't there. But they came up to us and made a lot of assumptions and then started to talk to us to feel us out.
[00:33:01] MATT: And they got nothing other than us just asking random questions. You're kidding.
[00:33:05] FAWN: No. Do you remember what state we were living in? Yeah. We were living here
[00:33:10] FAWN: Wait, are you serious? You never told me this because
[00:33:13] MATT: it wasn't important because these people weren't important.
[00:33:16] MATT: Wait, there's, there's huge zen prophecies profiles about this kind of stuff. Like the story is, is the masters walking with the disciples, they encounter a geisha, aka prostitute trying to get across a muddy path. The master picks her up and carries her across and goes on, and at the end of the day when they're having dinner, one of his disciples says, you know, you realize she was a geisha.
[00:33:42] MATT: Why did you pick her up and take her over to the other side? He's like my young whatever, apprentice, whatever. Why are you still carrying her? Right? I left her all the way back there at the path. So it's important, to really pay attention to stuff like this. And you know, I have to dig a little bit to even remember this stuff.
[00:34:02] MATT: It's not stuff that immediately comes to mind. I have, it sounds ridiculous to say, but trauma is trauma like Big T, little T. In the same way, prejudice is still prejudice. Little P, capital P I've had to deal with little P prejudice, right? But little P, it's not like huge systemic craziness that other people have had to deal with, which makes me almost uncomfortable to even talk about Uhhuh.
[00:34:29] MATT: And the whole goal when I do run into that is, you know, if I can't logic my way out, then you just ask questions and you just
[00:34:38] FAWN: move on. Matt, you have to tell me more. Where, what did they say? Like what was it that they were offended by?
[00:34:44] MATT: No, no, no, no. They made assumptions. What were they assuming? They were assuming that our political beliefs, our religious beliefs were in running counter to theirs.
[00:34:55] MATT: Wait,
[00:34:56] FAWN: why would they even say that? It's not like we're walking around with any symbols or anything like that. So what were, where was it? Is it a coffee shop? Where were you? It
[00:35:05] MATT: was, we were just out. I'm just gonna say we were
[00:35:07] FAWN: out. Do I know these
[00:35:09] MATT: people? I No. And I don't know them either. They're gone. It doesn't matter.
[00:35:13] MATT: They're gone. I will never see them again. I
[00:35:15] FAWN: can't believe it. I thought we were finally in a place where like things were cool man.
[00:35:22] MATT: We there are militant people everywhere. So keep that in mind.
[00:35:27] FAWN: I know that, but I just feel like, and stuff
[00:35:30] MATT: comes out of people when, you know, they think they're in a safe space or they're in a pissed off place.
[00:35:37] MATT: Or, or,
[00:35:37] FAWN: or, or. So how did it get resolved?
[00:35:40] MATT: We laughed about it.
[00:35:41] FAWN: When they left. They left? Yeah. Did they leave in a huff or No,
[00:35:46] MATT: we didn't give them anything that contradicted the contra indicated I. any of their beliefs. Okay. Because we, we weren't there to change their minds. Mm-hmm. Know, because that was not going to happen.
[00:36:02] MATT: They were not in a receptive place. Oh
[00:36:04] FAWN: man. Okay. All right. Shall we go on? We shall go on. It's gonna be hard for me to move on from that. I have questions. Okay, so
[00:36:12] FAWN: number six is phone a friend. Choose your friends wisely. Oh yeah. Big time. And ask them to hold you accountable for setting boundaries and following through.
[00:36:20] FAWN: Um, yes. You know what, so yesterday I had to choose my friends wisely. I had a list of people I thought I should call cause I was in a state. I needed someone right to like help. I needed some kindness. I needed someone to list to me. I needed someone to hold me. I went down the list and I knew, oh, I cannot talk to this person.
[00:36:42] FAWN: This person has way too much on their plate. Right. They don't have the capacity to be there, even though they want to. Mm-hmm. I don't even wanna do that to them. Right. They have enough troubles. Right. I went to one friend who has no help at all. Like energetically I could see like there was a wall.
[00:36:58] FAWN: Mm-hmm. I'm like, okay. And then I reached out to another friend. Without saying anything, come over right now. And, and I eventually did and they just, like two of them met me literally with open arms, brought me ice, cold water, brought me tissue to wipe away the tears, like totally talked to me and just offered so much love.
[00:37:27] FAWN: And within the hour I felt like a new person. Mm-hmm. I was so grateful, but like, you have to choose your friends wisely. Absolutely. That was my way of choosing was like, I had to go down a little checklist, like can this person handle it? And then the one you think who may handle it turns out to be a total dud, you know?
[00:37:48] FAWN: Oh, well I like, just move on. Don't take it personally. Move on. Right. You know? No, but choose them wisely. I get it. Yeah.
[00:37:55] MATT: No, I have. I have friends out there that, you know, will call, we'll talk to each other, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I know, and they know, it's almost like an unwritten agreement. If I call and you can't pick up, boom, and you know, you, you don't pick up.
[00:38:11] MATT: If I call you again, doesn't matter hell or high
[00:38:14] FAWN: water you're picking up. But that's, that's Jim. He is very cool. He is an exceptional human. Well, I'm just saying angel.
[00:38:22] MATT: Those are the people. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter where you're at, what you're at. And you have to be able to offer that to others too.
[00:38:29] FAWN: Exactly. And if you can't offer it, don't just be a brick wall about it. Try with all your might with kindness to explain you can't right now, in a way that will have them come back to you as a friend instead of like, I will never deal with that person again. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes and no.
[00:38:49] FAWN: What? What?
[00:38:50] MATT: No. Well, I would, I, I can't, you know, it would have to be beyond a singular occurrence for me not to pick up.
[00:38:59] FAWN: But if you're overwhelmed and you can't deal, you have to figure out in advance, like when you're not in trauma. Or you're not overwhelmed. Think about when I am in a, in an overwhelmed state, how can I express that to someone who needs me in a way that will have them still feel kindly towards me or that I'm kind towards them?
[00:39:24] FAWN: Can I go on to the next one? You can. Um, okay. So number seven. The last one is don't be a victim. It says, set boundaries and be clear about them and about your decisions. Clarify your goals, and your timeliness and your needs.
[00:39:40] FAWN: Yeah, I'm not gonna let you push me around. I'm not gonna let you put that label on me. I'm sorry you feel that way. You know when someone's like giving you grief. Mm-hmm. So anyway, that's how I'm taking it. Just don't be a victim. To be a victim means you take the bait basically. Right? As soon as you take the bait, then you're a fish that was caught and it's gonna get eaten.
[00:40:01] MATT: And this is where it all gets almost flipped up in the air because it's literally like you don't know yourself, but then is it you don't know yourself or you're unwilling to change or, and you start seeing the multi-dimensionality of the whole thing?
[00:40:16] FAWN: Explain,
[00:40:17] MATT: well, I don't be a victim, right? So you go to somebody or somebody comes to you, you know, that's one side of the conversation, right?
[00:40:26] MATT: And they want to put things on you and you say, mm, no thank you. I don't accept delivery. I'm not gonna be a victim. Right? That's somebody coming to you. But then you go to some, some, I don't even have to say that by the way, but then you go to somebody else, you flip that argument and they give you a stonewall.
[00:40:45] MATT: Mm-hmm. They give you back, you know, I don't accept delivery. So tricky. Tricky as all, but know yourself and have an understanding who you are and go forward with that. Go forward in strength, and don't just blindly accept somebody's labeling, shaming, whatever you want to call it, of
[00:41:07] FAWN: course. So don't be a victim, but that means you're strong.
[00:41:12] FAWN: But that doesn't mean all the time being like brutally strong Sometimes you can be very powerful and soft at the same time. Where just your sheer presence lets them know you're not a victim don't mess with me or don't bring that towards me. In Aikido, we talk about it as a circle. Things are not allowed in my circle, and people feel that.
[00:41:35] FAWN: Right? You don't have to show or flex your muscle. It is felt, it's seen. So you don't have to act like a big brute of I'm not a victim. Yes. You can be a soft mother that is known. I'm not a victim. I'm a nourishing nourisher, but I'm not a victim. Don't mess with me.
[00:41:55] FAWN: Right. Okay. Those are the seven and and then I was thinking sometimes we're not baited into conflict, but we are triggered. Sometimes we're not taking the bait, but it still triggers us. Is that still a bait? Because we're not gonna go with them, but we, we can still go off in our corner and be triggered for a while.
[00:42:16] MATT: Well, that typically you get triggered based upon previous events and, previously held beliefs or even currently held beliefs. It's not an easy thing if you like really respect somebody and they happen to say, oh well because you are this way, you're going to, you know, burn in h.E. Double hockey sticks.
[00:42:36] FAWN: I mean, that's a huge conversation right there. That is,
[00:42:38] MATT: but that can be, know, triggering and all the rest of it.
[00:42:42] FAWN: So let's just think about that, that we are triggered. Don't get involved with a conflict because you are triggered. Just go quietly into your own space, privately, try to clear your trigger so you don't have that charge on whatever it is.
[00:42:58] FAWN: Clear it. In your own private way. there's something that I wanna close off this show about that's happening around the world is what about political bait? I was seeing so many countries around the world taking political bait, how, we're veered away from what matters by. Some ridiculous statements, some ridiculous ideas, some not so ridiculous.
[00:43:25] FAWN: But they have a way to manipulate our emotions and have we gotten during these ridiculous debates we've gotten so off of our purpose of life.
[00:43:40] FAWN: We should be spending our time and energy on doing good things instead of getting sucked into innane talks with people who don't hear you. And I'm talking about certain family members with us. I was proud of us yesterday. They were trying, we didn't take that bait. They, they baited after bait, after bait, after bait.
[00:44:00] FAWN: And none of us took it. And the conversation just petered out and we're like, okay, bye. Right. . A bait works because they reaffirm what we already perceive as true or at least find convincing. So think of yourself as a fish. Know what is actually food for thought or food for you for your life, or something that seems like food, but it's not. Be discerning about things around you.
[00:44:34] FAWN: Anything you wanna say to close that off? Definitely
[00:44:37] MATT: true. I had something and then it fled. Oh yes. Political brinksmanship. Oh my goodness. Political what?
[00:44:45] FAWN: Brinksmanship.
[00:44:47] MATT: What does that mean? Ah, what that I knew that's one I don't know, but I believe it means when you're playing games, Did you know there's a governor in a state that begins with W, either Wyoming or Wisconsin, and they can change the wording of laws as they sign them in, they could subtly change it.
[00:45:05] MATT: So just recently they passed something where they're gonna increase funding for schools for the next four years. Well, governor is allowed to amend that, and he made it for the next. 400 years. Oh my God. Which is fun because you're literally baiting the the other side, or you know, basically it's the other side to say, you can't do that.
[00:45:31] MATT: We're gonna vote that down. And then all of a sudden they hate education because they're not willing to fund it for the next 400 years. And now the previous governor signed something into effect, something about air conditioners for the next 1000 years.
[00:45:46] FAWN: So all they're doing is just adding some zeros at
[00:45:49] MATT: that, in those two examples?
[00:45:51] MATT: Yes, and it was both sides of the aisle, which is just because we're not directly emotionally attached to it. It sounds really funny, but if we were directly emotionally attached to it's, that would be, oh my God, I can't believe, well,
[00:46:06] FAWN: I'm not directly attached to it, which is why I'm kind of laughing because I can see All they had to do was say, I saw you put those zeros in.
[00:46:15] FAWN: And that's not the contract here. You know, that's not the agreement. Take those zeros, well set 'em right then
[00:46:23] MATT: the next session. Otherwise we're gonna have to, they change it back, but yes. Right. And it's all just political
[00:46:28] FAWN: ridiculousness, but like, you don't have to get involved, you don't have to get emotional.
[00:46:32] FAWN: Just say to yourself, I'm not gonna take the bait. Right. But just say, remove those zeroes kindly. Right. Thank you. Bye.
[00:46:43] MATT: Anyways,
[00:46:44] FAWN: so that's it for me. Anything you wanna add? I believe that was quite good, don't you? Yes it was. I always ask you that. It's the Persian in me. It's like saying goodbye, but over and over again cuz you don't wanna say goodbye like the long one of our friends called it.
[00:46:59] FAWN: What? An Irish goodbye. I have no idea. Cause I was saying I was Persian and when you go to a Persian house or a Persian party, the goodbyes at the door last as long as the party does. You know, like, okay. Bye. Okay, thanks for listening guys. Ooh, that was a long one. We've been trying to do 20 minute ones, but we're now at 55 minutes.
[00:47:20] FAWN: Okay. Thanks for listening, you guys. We love you so much. Please tell other people about the show. Leave some nice comments on. , iTunes, tell people to download, spread The word about what we're trying to do is we're trying to bring back the art of friendship. And it's done with conversation. It's done with understanding.
[00:47:40] FAWN: It's done with understanding where we're all at and expressing and sharing our lives, and that will change our society for the better. And that's it. That's the art of friendship. Thank you for spending time with us. Love you guys. Talk to you soon. Be well.
