Kindness Rules - The Top 5 Ways of Showing Kindness

This week we go over the top 5 types of kindness and the top 5 places kindness can be displayed. It's said that one of the reasons why people stop and aren't kind is because kindness takes time (either they have no time or they perceive that they have no time). We think that kindness does not take time. Kindness has many ways. One way could be in the way you look at someone. Smiling, for example, has an art to it (the art of smiling is a thing that Fawn talks about all the time). We can all absolutely feel and see people smile. We can sense a genuine smile. When we are being completely in the moment, even if we're rushed, allows for some gentleness to occur for ourselves (within our little bubble). That feeling ripples out. That's a form of kindness.
Matt shows how kindness is interpreted; how people see expressions of kindness, through a study that was done in the UK by the University of Sussex. 

As Fawn and Matt discuss how people view kindness and add to it the perception of how time and opportunity as well as preconceived ideas play a role in kindness, Fawn makes the point that we all have our talents, that we all have our ways to provide kindness, and argues that there should not be a blanket way to be kind; that there are many, many infinite possibilities where kindness can show itself. We should never ever underestimate the power of a genuine smile.


It's a brave act to be kind, because yes if you are expected kindness to be understood and reciprocated immediately, you may get your feelings hurt. Being kind should be like lending someone money. Don't lend someone money and expect to get it back. If you lend it, just give it with the expectation that you'll never see it again. You're not being kind to get something in response. You're being kind to help somebody. When someone is hurting, they may lash out at you. They're in so much pain and that pain is just ricocheting off everywhere. And you may get hit by it. You have to kind of expect that and not let that injure you and keep going with your kindness and do your good deed.

So why bother being kind? Why not just concentrate on me in mine? Humanity is one body. When one person is in pain, we all feel the pain. And if that person is ignored (their pain is ignored, their pain will spread out to the rest of society. So being kind is really being kind to others, is being kind to yourself. In our own house, if someone is in a bad mood and someone is crying and someone's upset, it affects the whole home. It's the same thing outside of the home. It's the same thing in our society. So that is why kindness is important. It's pretty simple.

We'd all much rather live in a world where everyone is kind than a world where everyone is not kind. And even if that's a world where we just try and help, everybody wants to live in a world where everybody's trying to help them, and that makes it easier for us to try and help everyone. This results in us having more energy. If you're constantly feeling like everything is, "you're on your own kid" as we hear all the time growing up in the United States, "pull yourself by your bootstraps." "You're on your own kid" at 18, you're out. When we hear all that stuff, it is disheartening. It is impossible and exhausting to do everything ourselves.

The honest truth is there's no way we would survive doing everything ourselves. Do you know how to invent electricity? What if we lost the art of knowing how to produce electricity or we lost the art of making glass? Look at all the things that are at our fingertips; that we take for granted that make our lives comfortable. We are dependent on one another. We need each other. We need to relearn the art of kindness because it's not just about performing certain acts that you feel like you're indebted to. It's not about obligation. It is about kindness. It's not about obligation. It's about making someone's life better. And if you think about it, kindness should be thought of in business because no matter what kind of business you're in, if a lawyer or a dentist or a shoemaker, it doesn't matter; you're there to make someone's life easier. Many businesses forget or neglect that they're there to improve someone's life. We are interlaced.

Kindness Rules - TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] FAWN: Welcome back everybody. Hello? Hello. Hello. Matt just asked me if I was mad at him and I didn't

[00:00:08] FAWN: answer him

[00:00:08] MATT: exactly. I think it's a valid question.

[00:00:11] FAWN: It totally is. The truth is, I feel annoyed at everything this morning and you are the center of it. .

[00:00:18] MATT: But I've been nothing but lovely. I made

[00:00:20] MATT: breakfast.

[00:00:22] FAWN: It's true.

[00:00:23] FAWN: It's true.

[00:00:24] FAWN: And I was thinking to myself, although it's not the topic for today, I was thinking to myself, what do you do when you're annoyed all the time by things, little, everything, even annoyed by the person you totally love, which is happening?

[00:00:39] MATT: Who was delightful

[00:00:43] FAWN: nonetheless, I am so annoyed today.

[00:00:47] FAWN: I woke up that way, and I think it's because I need time for myself. I haven't been taking care of my own psyche. I haven't been able to take care of everything that I wanna take care of for a few months now. And, I'm tired. I woke up, I got ready, got all dolled up. And fell asleep on the couch, and I just woke up again.

[00:01:10] FAWN: So yeah, when you're annoyed, look inside and that's what I'm trying to do. So does that answer your question?

[00:01:20] FAWN: Yes. It is interesting though. Oh, I'm sorry. loud there. He just blew out my ear. I'm sorry. Uh, I do think it's interesting cuz it does tie into today's topic, which is

[00:01:31] FAWN: kindness. Again, kudos to you cuz you're, you're going to lead today, today's conversation, and I know what you're gonna talk about.

[00:01:41] FAWN: And I wanna start off by something that really annoyed me. You're not gonna let me years ago with my point. I'm, I'm gonna do one of the things on your list, I just kind of looked over, I peeked at it. One of the things that you wanted to talk about, Helping other people, for example, with their bags and stuff.

[00:01:59] FAWN: And I don't wanna jump ahead and like make you start with that. I just wanna say, talk about being annoyed. I have something to say about that. So when you get to the part about the bags, I wanna say something. All right. All right. Go ahead Matt. Hi. Hello. Let's.

[00:02:17] MATT: See where I wanted to go, which now we've

[00:02:20] FAWN: segue. Aren't even gonna say hello to everyone. Hello.

[00:02:24] MATT: Where we've segue. Oh, she hates it when I do that, folks. Oh, dear. Yes. Yes. Okay. I wanted to segue because one of the reasons why people stop and aren't kind is because kindness takes time. And they have no time or they perceive that they have no

[00:02:41] FAWN: time.

[00:02:41] FAWN: Kindness does not take time. Kindness is in the way you look at someone and you know, and also since, since people had to wear masks and stuff over the last few years, people say, oh, well you can't see people smile. You can absolutely feel and see people smile. If you can see their eyes, and I say, even if their face is covered, you can still sense a smile.

[00:03:03] FAWN: as opposed to someone growling at you, . Oh dear. Not, not growling with a sound, but menacing. You know what I'm saying? You can sense it and it goes back to flirting. Do you know how to flirt with someone? Can you flirt with someone from across the room with just eye contact, tell them that you think that there's something special.

[00:03:30] FAWN: Yes you can. And that's how you flirt. And I think not just with flirting to find a mate to meet with. I think flirting should be understood. And it's an art to study because it's for all of us. It's how we communicate with our eyes. Go ahead, Matt. No, it's fine. Or we're reversing the rolls because I wanna disagree with every little thing you say.

[00:03:55] FAWN: Okay. But see how

[00:03:56] FAWN: you like it.

[00:03:57] MATT: Feel free to disagree with 60,000 people, who took a 30 minute survey across 140 countries and who said one of the things, limiting how kind they are is lack of time.

[00:04:08] MATT: So that's fine.

[00:04:09] FAWN: Well, that's why I would

[00:04:11] FAWN: like to talk about the Art of Friendship because it doesn't take time.

[00:04:15] FAWN: A lot of things don't take time. That is a lazy excuse to come up with, to not be kind. Right? Go ahead, give some examples.

[00:04:26] MATT: Some examples of what

[00:04:28] FAWN: the of, of what takes time to be kind.

[00:04:31] FAWN: If

[00:04:31] MATT: you're in a rush, you're not perceiving and you're not taking in the moment, so it's hard for you to even perceive opportunities.

[00:04:42] FAWN: You. That's when, like I said, today I was feeling, I am feeling very perturbed, but as soon as I realize it, I need to be kind, kind to myself and say, you know what? I need to rest and I need to be in the moment. And being completely in the moment, even if you're rushed, allows for some gentleness to occur for yourself and within your little bubble and that ripples out. And that's a form of kindness because you're more gentle.

[00:05:18] FAWN: So it, it doesn't take that much time to be kind. It's a vibe. It's a vibe and it's how you walk with that. And you should be walking with mindfulness, and mindfulness is kind and it doesn't take time.

[00:05:35] MATT: People see expressions of kindness. Or they've interpreted, this was a study that was done in the UK by the University of Sussex.

[00:05:43] MATT: They have def unfortunately, or fortunately, they're, one of their definitions of kindness is actually kind of performing actions. It's a way of clearly seeing that somebody is being kind. So again, lack of time means lack of, opportunity to perform an action.

[00:06:02] FAWN: Just because a university does a study doesn't mean it's the right kind of study.

[00:06:06] FAWN: It doesn't mean that they did it right. So you can get 60,000 people. Yes. I mean, last week we were talking about Myers Briggs. Oh. And that is full of crap. We know that. Right?

[00:06:16] MATT: As soon as, as soon as it was vetted, it kind of fell apart. Yes.

[00:06:20] FAWN: So I'm just saying just because you got 60,000 people to agree on something, you're not gonna sway me because I think being kind is really simple.

[00:06:30] FAWN: How does it feel, Matt, to be the opposite? ?

[00:06:33] MATT: No, no, no. It's, it's, it's all good. And you know what, if, if that's where we're going, that's where we're going and that's totally fine. I'm, and what we're, what were,

[00:06:42] FAWN: hold on, hold on. I'm not trying to do this to be mean to you, by the way. I don't do it to be mean

[00:06:46] MATT: to you either.

[00:06:47] FAWN: Yeah. Okay. Well, I just, well, I feel mean cause this is not normally my nature to constantly break down whatever you say, but this subject mm-hmm. really, is important to me. Right. And I don't want people to go, well you see, you study proves it that it takes time and it's hard. It's not!

[00:07:07] FAWN: Well,

[00:07:07] MATT: okay. Hard. No. Is it, does it require time? Sometimes. And did you say hard? Hard. A hard no. On what? Is it hard?

[00:07:19] FAWN: No. Is it hard to be kind? Right. Sometimes it is. Sometimes you do have to go outta your way. Sometimes it can be for sure. I mean, somebody's car could be, um, the tire needs to be changed on the side or the road.

[00:07:31] FAWN: And if you don't know how to fix it and you pull over to try to help this person, yeah, that is hard. It takes time. I don't know how to do it. You know, we all have our talents, we have our ways to provide kindness and I think that we look at a blanket way to be kind as the only way to be kind.

[00:07:51] FAWN: There are many, many infinite possibilities where kindness can show itself. Correct.

[00:07:58] MATT: But it's hard to express kindness without performing an action.

[00:08:04] FAWN: I disagree.

[00:08:05] MATT: I know. I know you do. But just because you look at somebody and smile, it doesn't necessarily mean the other person feels you're being

[00:08:11] MATT: kind.

[00:08:12] FAWN: It does, if it's sincere. Look, the other day I was driving out of our neighborhood and I'm looking around for other kids, other, like preteens, teens. Mm-hmm. . Because I want our kids to find these other kids out there. , we still don't know a lot of people. We know our street and who lives on this particular street.

[00:08:34] FAWN: So as I was driving away, the bus stop happens. Like the bus comes and these kids get off the bus and oh my God, the most orneriest or orry

[00:08:49] FAWN: the most, or. Kids came off this bus. Mind you, they were probably tired and the whole day at school, because they have to deal with school and whatever happens there, which I, I hate because obviously that's why we're homeschooling. But they looked so angry and tired and defeated. And I, I understand like if someone, a stranger is looking at them, you know, I, I, I kind of remember that like, what are you looking at, right?

[00:09:19] FAWN: Is the kind of attitude like, are you another person that's gonna get on me? But honestly, I, uh, I was seriously looking to find friends. And this one, teen teenager who looked like very edgy and stuff, she caught me looking at them. She smiled the most beautiful, heartwarming smile that to this day, I'm like, oh, , it changed my day.

[00:09:48] FAWN: You know, she obviously felt my, , sincerity in front friendship, even though I was looking for a friend for my kids. Like, Hey, are you my friends kid? Are you my kids friends? Um, but like, wow. So that right there, Never underestimate the power of a genuine smile. I'm not talking about the other smiles I tell you guys about all the time.

[00:10:11] FAWN: Like when you see those real estate agents who or whoever is a professional, you see portraits of them. They think that the mere stretching of the lips and the showing of the teeth is a smile, and those are horrifying smiles. They're not smiles. Just because you stretch your lips to the sides doesn't mean you're smiling.

[00:10:32] FAWN: It is horrible. That's what I'm talking about, Matt. It has to be genuine. I can feel

[00:10:37] FAWN: it.

[00:10:37] MATT: I

[00:10:38] MATT: get it. But

[00:10:39] MATT: yesterday I was, I was with my, my youngest, we were

[00:10:43] MATT: at the library

[00:10:44] MATT: and this woman came in and she was like, I lost my library card. And they're like, oh, okay. We have a stash of library cards that people have turned in.

[00:10:52] MATT: So what's your last name? And she said what her last name is, and then the woman is like, your name's not. And it was a kid, it was a boy's name, and this was a woman. And. No, that's my son. Son lost his library card. I was being, I gave out a chuckle, but I was feeling very kind and I was like, oh, in there, right.

[00:11:17] MATT: Complete indifference back to me. Complete indifference. Didn't even look at me. Didn't even just. Trying to take care of business and just blah.

[00:11:28] FAWN: Okay. So you have a woman

[00:11:30] FAWN: that has to prove something to a system. So being a woman, you already feel like you're being judged and you're having to prove yourself.

[00:11:40] FAWN: And then you have a man laughing. You don't have the capacity to look over say is this a kindhearted man? All you, so that that's what you're faced against, Matt. So you have to realize that, that just because you have a kind heart doesn't mean that a woman in that situation having to yet again prove herself to get something that is rightfully hers, like to justify something.

[00:12:07] FAWN: It doesn't mean that she'll have the capacity to, to hear your kindness. You understand what I'm saying?

[00:12:12] MATT: I d (Matt tries to say something).

[00:12:12] FAWN: It's like when you said good for you to that person,

[00:12:16] MATT: always gotta bring that up.

[00:12:17] FAWN: Well, because it's a great example.

[00:12:18] MATT: I know

[00:12:19] FAWN: Matt said, good for you to this person that said, I can't help you, I'm really busy.

[00:12:23] FAWN: And he said, good for you. And the person got really bent out of shape to the point where I had to call her back. And this business explain it was a business saying she, she couldn't make it to our house she couldn't do the hardwood floors because she can't take any more clients. She's too busy.

[00:12:44] FAWN: Matt said, good for you. She totally misunderstood that as SAR sarcasm, but you genuinely. Because we, you know, back then we were studying businesses and having our own business and everything. So we, we,

[00:12:59] MATT: I was

[00:12:59] MATT: excited that a local business had too much to

[00:13:02] MATT: handle

[00:13:03] FAWN: and a local woman owned business that was doing well.

[00:13:06] FAWN: So you actually meant good for you, but again, you have to consider what, what is truly happening there. Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:13:14] MATT: I totally

[00:13:15] MATT: get it. And that again, this. The survey actually played out. Interestingly enough, they said that the kind of the two reasons why people aren't kinder is because the fear, the fear that it's gonna be misinterpreted.

[00:13:29] MATT: Mm-hmm. and no time. So we're kind of bouncing, but still bouncing between those things.

[00:13:34] MATT: That's why I

[00:13:34] FAWN: say it's brave. It's a brave act to be kind, because yes, even if you look at kids, like when kids get hurt, even if it's your own. Let's say they stub their toe or they fall down and they're crying and you go over there.

[00:13:50] FAWN: There, there's a certain age where you like go over there and you're like trying to hug them and you're trying to take care of their hurt. They will literally push you away physically and yell at you. I don't know why. I don't know the psychology behind that, but they're like, get away from me, and you have to

[00:14:12] FAWN: expect that in a way from everybody. Right? I know it sounds terrible, but if you're gonna be kind, it's like lending someone money. Don't lend someone money and expect to get it back. Lend it and, and just give it with the expectation that you'll never see it again. You're not being kind to get something in response.

[00:14:34] FAWN: You're being kind to help somebody. So yeah, they may lash out at you. Because they're in so much pain and that pain is just ricocheting off everywhere. Right? Right. And you may get hit by it. So you have to, unfortunately, this is my advice. You have to kind of expect that and not let that injure you and keep going with your kindness and do your good

[00:14:59] FAWN: deed.

[00:15:00] MATT: Yeah, absolutely. As soon as you start looking for, to get something out of it, other than just the pure kind of good vibe you get and the, you know, call it the good karma that you get because of it. Yeah. You start running into problems. I

[00:15:13] FAWN: mean, we all know that hurt people hurt. We have heard that it's become a trope now, I guess.

[00:15:20] FAWN: Is that a trope? I don't know. Whatever

[00:15:21] MATT: meme.

[00:15:22] FAWN: It's become a meme. That hurt people hurt, but it's true, right? When people are hurt, they hurt others or they hurt, you know, you wanna smash something you want the anger to be released from you. So it's like, a cloud, a dark cloud with electricity around it.

[00:15:39] FAWN: It's not going to be a rainbow, fluffy day, do you know what I'm saying? To be around that cloud will expose you to something that is not unicorns. And wishes, you know what I'm saying? Yes. Um, anyway, go ahead. I forgot what I was gonna say.

[00:16:04] MATT: So why do you suppose people are kind anyways? I mean, why bother? Why not just concentrate on me in mine? Why not just takey, takey, all the time.

[00:16:18] FAWN: because I think at our core, we all know that we're all interlaced and that we're all, we're all interconnected. When you're in pain, I'm in pain. When you're happy, I'm happy.

[00:16:34] MATT: I get it. I almost wanna take a slightly more , slightly more negative view of things and I, I would say just from a kind of an evolutionary perspective, If I'm, if you are sick and I help you, then when I'm sick, you'll help me. So there can be an integral selfishness at its core where it started and then as we evolved, it's still in there.

[00:17:04] MATT: But I think that, um,

[00:17:08] FAWN: I know what you mean.

[00:17:09] MATT: Good.

[00:17:09] FAWN: I think I would take it like a metaphysical. Or, or like, let's take it to this level. Let's say your body is your body and um, let's say Joe, we're looking at Joe Joe's knee hurts. But everywhere else he's fine.

[00:17:27] FAWN: Mm-hmm. , you wanna take care of that knee because if you don't take care of that knee, That pain or whatever is not addressed. If you're not gonna treat that knee, if you're not going to be kind to that knee and take care of that knee and give that knee what it needs, , um, it will spread to other places and take over the whole body, right?

[00:17:52] FAWN: Humanity is one body. When one person is in pain and you don't have that person, it (the pain) will spread. That person will inflict pain on others or it will just grow. If there's an area, a community that needs financial help, that is poor, that doesn't have food, doesn't have water, do you think that it will not change the rest of the world?

[00:18:18] FAWN: It will affect everything.

[00:18:20] FAWN: So to me, being kind is really being kind to others, is being kind to yourself. I mean, you described it as, okay, when you need help, right? Someone can help you. We, you know, I just look at it that way, that I am helping myself when I'm helping someone else, but not that I'm waiting for a payback. It's like,

[00:18:42] FAWN: In our own house, if someone is in a bad mood and someone is crying and someone upset is upset, it affects the whole home.

[00:18:49] MATT: Oh, yeah.

[00:18:50] FAWN: All right. It's the same thing outside of the home. It's the same thing in our society. So that is why kindness is important. Yeah.

[00:19:01] MATT: Uh, , it's amazing. 60,000 people to try and come up with some conclusions.

[00:19:08] MATT: But honestly, it's pretty simple. I think we'd all much rather live in a world where everyone is kind than a world where everyone is not kind. And even if that's a world where we just try and help, everybody wants to live in a world where everybody's trying to help them, and that makes it easier for us to try and help everyone.

[00:19:32] MATT: Yeah, because

[00:19:33] FAWN: you have more energy. If you're constantly feeling like everything is, "you're on your own kid." , as we hear all the time growing up in the United States, "pull yourself by your bootstraps." "You're on your own kid" at 18, you're out. When we hear all that stuff, it is, it is exhausting to do everything yourself.

[00:19:54] FAWN: And the honest truth is there's no way we would survive doing everything ourselves. Do you know how to invent electricity? What if we lost the art of knowing how to produce electricity or the, I remember in school I learned that we lost the art of making glass. It was lost in some eruption. I learned this in like third grade or something.

[00:20:18] FAWN: It just stayed like

[00:20:19] MATT: this must have been way, way, way back when.

[00:20:20] FAWN: Right. We had to relearn how to make glass, but like, do you know how to make glass? Like do you have the ability right now?

[00:20:26] MATT: Oh no. It has something to do with heating sand. But that's about all I know. All right. Like,

[00:20:30] FAWN: like look at all the things that are, that we take for granted that makes our lives comfortable.

[00:20:38] FAWN: I don't know how to do a hundred percent of it.

[00:20:43] FAWN: I can make a great meal. I don't know how to grow anything. I've tried.

[00:20:48] MATT: Well, making a great meal is part of it. It's not a hundred percent of nothing.

[00:20:51] FAWN: I wouldn't know how to grow a carrot. I try to grow a carrot and all the other animals come and get it before I get it. Like, you know what I'm saying? That it doesn't even have a chance to grow, cuz.

[00:21:01] FAWN: I don't know how to grow it. , as we all know, years and years of trying to grow things out in, out in nature. And that's what I'm saying. We are so, uh, not indebted, what's the word, Matt? We are so in it together that we we're so

[00:21:19] MATT: interconnected.

[00:21:20] FAWN: We are, yeah, that's the word I use, but there's another word we're we are dependent on another.

[00:21:25] FAWN: That's a terrible word.

[00:21:26] FAWN: I

[00:21:26] MATT: know it

[00:21:27] MATT: is.

[00:21:28] FAWN: We are dependent on one another. We need each other and we are helping each other out for the most part. For the most part, I think beautifully. And I think there come some leaders that see that and they try to disrupt that chain. They disrupt that connection.

[00:21:51] MATT: Well, people.

[00:21:53] MATT: Thrash the connection, as it were, for, for their own gain, be it short term or long term,

[00:21:59] FAWN: you know? Well, like I said, hurt,

[00:22:00] MATT: people hurt sometimes, but sometimes there's good business in separating people. Sadly, like

[00:22:05] FAWN: I said, that takes us back to a couple episodes, right? We're talking about the elements. You can't put fire and water together.

[00:22:15] FAWN: They're enemies. But, um, I, I'm just gonna jump ahead to what I saw on your list. Oh, dear. Okay, so there's one day, I think this is going back to, we need to relearn the art of kindness because it's not just about performing certain acts that you feel like you're indebted by. Like, it's not about obligation, it is about kindness.

[00:22:43] FAWN: It's not about obligation. So it's about making someone's life better. And if you think about it, kindness should be thought of in business because no matter what kind of business you're in, if a lawyer or a dentist or a shoemaker, it doesn't matter. You're there to make someone's life easier. And I think we forget that you're there to improve someone's life.

[00:23:12] FAWN: That's all business is about. And I think we should do a whole series on kindness in business. But it's not that you're indebted by this act of kindness. It's not that you're, it shouldn't be about obligation. I remember, had just given birth to Allegra, and so it was our second and this neighbor who had just moved in a few months before. She felt obliged to bring over food. Now, if you knew me, you knew that with a previous pregnancy, I, I had, we almost died. Both the baby, our baby, and me and I died almost. And you know, my, and also in the midst of this, my C-section ripped open, got infected.

[00:24:07] FAWN: The doctors didn't care. They were like, okay, you're checking out and you were trying to convince them she needs help and they weren't hearing it. So it was horrible and it took me a year and a half to recuperate from that C-section. And so despite not being able to move, I needed the house a certain way for me to feel comfortable.

[00:24:30] FAWN: And I'm a neat freak, but I needed the house to be clean. And we lived in the forest. So if you were out there with shoes, you can't come into our house with shoes because you're tracking in mud and dirt twigs, all this stuff, right? And at that point, you know, we had little L crawling all over the place and I didn't have the ability to clean up to make sure that she would be okay if she crawled around and like picked stuff up off the outside that was inside our home.

[00:25:02] FAWN: So it was very important for me to relax being again in bed after another C-section. Please when you come into our home, take off your shoes. So the neighbor brought food over and I could hear from, from the bedroom. She had her boots on and she just was like walking in our place with her boots. And I tried to, in the most gentle way, say, please, can you take your shoes off shoes?

[00:25:33] FAWN: And at this point I had like, I, I, I tried to scoot over like, and so I could see her, but she didn't know that I was moving. She thought I was still in bed, and I looked at her face and she had the most horrible look on her face. Like she was rolling her eyes and like mouthing all kinds of profanity because I had told her to please take off her shoes because she felt obligated to bring something.

[00:26:02] FAWN: First of all, I don't need your, you know, I don't need your food. Like, she did it for o for other reasons, for other selfish reasons. So it wasn't a kind act, and it certainly wasn't a kind act to, to, to be. So, um, what's the word when you're, um,

[00:26:21] FAWN: it, it's like I made her go out of her way. It was inconvenient for her. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. Yeah, absolutely. To just slip off your boots for a second and just, just put the food down like on the bench. Right. But instead, you know, she doesn't think about doing something good all the way around.

[00:26:43] FAWN: She, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. , she had her own reasons or her own rules for what is kind. She wasn't really truly thinking of what is actually helping me. It was actually hurting me. A, we're vegan, so we don't even eat that stuff. B, you're bringing in stuff from the outside with your shoes. You know, there's a little happy little sign outside that's like, please remove your shoes.

[00:27:12] FAWN: Please remove your shoes. But anyway, there are ways I think we all need to relearn the art of kindness. Like going back to, I saw something on your list. I'm sorry. I know I'm talking so much, but like, this is, this is a heated, this is a heated issue for me.

[00:27:27] MATT: Kindness is a heated issue?

[00:27:28] FAWN: Yeah, it is. Because I feel like, again, people feel like it's an obligation.

[00:27:34] FAWN: Right. And when you go there, it's not, it's not kind. So, alright. Years and years ago you had a terrible boss. Oh yeah, I think it took us a while to understand his behavior he lacked a lot of

[00:27:48] MATT: empathy.

[00:27:49] FAWN: He lacked, social cues. Um, we didn't know that about him. We just, he just was not a nice person. He had difficulty communicating, but I didn't know that.

[00:28:03] FAWN: Anyway, so we lived in Santa Monica and parking in Santa Monica is absurd, or I don't know if it's changed since we left, but sometimes it would take an hour and a half to find a parking spot to go into your apartment

[00:28:16] MATT: and it would be three blocks away. Mm-hmm. .

[00:28:19] FAWN: And so like, you know, if you have to go to the bathroom or , if you're carrying heavy, heavy things, good luck.

[00:28:26] FAWN: If you're late for something, good luck it. It could take you an hour and a half to find a place to park, to go to your own home. Anyway, so this one day I had just come back from grocery shopping and I had an obscene amount of bags on me and they were all heavy, like so heavy. And I was trying to rush and I was trying to make it to the door, and he's standing there on the corner and he's just looking.

[00:28:56] FAWN: He's like, you need some help. And I remember I got so offended by that because on your list, I think you wrote, you should ask people if they need help. I don't think you should say you need some help when obviously someone is obviously, struggling or in pain or something. You don't say you need some help.

[00:29:17] FAWN: You say, oh my God, look at those bags, please, will you let me take some bags from you?.

[00:29:23] MATT: But that is indeed also asking for help or that's indeed making sure it's okay.

[00:29:27] FAWN: But that's what I'm trying to tell you is there's a subtle art to it. Yes. You need some help. It's like, are you insane? It's like if someone is bleeding, you need some help.

[00:29:39] FAWN: Duh. No, you, you state the obvious. This is the art. This is the difference. You're standing there without a care in the world. You, you don't have any bags on you. Your hands are free. The wind is, is blowing in your hair and you're all light and carefree and you're looking at someone that you know who's carrying 18 bags and you're like, you need some help.

[00:30:07] FAWN: It's like, that makes me wanna slap that person. But if you say, oh my God, FAWN!. Can I take some of those bags? Please? Can I help you? It's, do you understand the difference? Yeah, it

[00:30:19] MATT: is absolutely a big

[00:30:20] FAWN: difference. That's how you should approach it, right? From my mind. Right? So what did I tell him? I got mad and I said, "no! Thanks anyway." I was sarcastic because he felt to me sarcastic, right?

[00:30:34] FAWN: So anyway,

[00:30:36] MATT: so in many ways it's very similar to a good for you , sadly. What do you mean? Well, it, I believe he actually just heard you say No, thanks. Yeah. For, you know,

[00:30:49] FAWN: thanks anyways, unfor. No, but if you had seen my face, I'm sure I did not look pleased. But

[00:30:56] MATT: again, looking at, um, social cues tricky

[00:31:01] FAWN: again. He didn't, yeah, he probably didn't understand it.

[00:31:04] FAWN: But you know what? You're a grown man in your mid 30. You should have known,

[00:31:10] MATT: you should have picked up something. But anyways, uh, but again, that's one of those tricky things because, one of the places that kindness as it turns out is least valued, is online, which is a place where you don't get to see the social cues and you don't get to see the facial expressions, and you don't get to understand the tone and the tense.

[00:31:30] MATT: which means kindness does not run rampant online. Meanness

[00:31:34] FAWN: does, sadly. Well, yeah. Again, you can't sense a smile, right? Because you can't, you're not in unless you're very psychically, um, meta, physically attuned to things. You can't sense what's happening. You needs to be around the person,

[00:31:51] MATT: and that's why you need to be bold in, you're contacting people on messengers and

[00:31:57] MATT: stuff and make sure you send an emoji. I, I've always considered emoji's, never a lie. So I always try and send a smiley emoji just in case somebody wants to misinterpret what I send to them.

[00:32:06] FAWN: And again, I think it's the lack of the usage of certain words or a link of words. Do you need help? Or (instead saying) I see that you are experiencing this.

[00:32:19] FAWN: Can I do this for you? Is different. I think even if it's online, if you use more words and more adjectives, then there will not be a misunderstanding. And then you will know the tone and you don't even have to use an emoji.

[00:32:35] MATT: You're right, you're right. I, I think I use an emoji as a shortcut.

[00:32:39] FAWN: I think that's the problem; that we feel like everything needs a shortcut. And the more shortcuts we take, the uglier things are. Like, I never wanna take a shortcut when we drive somewhere. I always wanna go the prettiest route. The ugliest route will actually take me longer because in my mind and in the way I think I'm there and it's ugly and it lasts longer.

[00:33:06] FAWN: Do you know what I'm saying? Squarely outside. Matt, you're just like, can we get back to the topic? Matt saw a squirrel. Everybody. He's still there. Okay. . He's perched. News. Flash breaking news. Matt sees a squirrel. outside. Can we get back to the topic? Okay, so that's online. What else do you have to say?

[00:33:28] FAWN: Be brave. Be bold. Yeah, we already said that. Don't be afraid you.

[00:33:32] MATT: You know what? Take your time. No, seriously. You know, I work with , I work with some fun people from very different areas of the country. And actually, um, so one of my coworkers actually just took a slight, little, little like dink at me and he was like, yeah, I'm about to being stubborn, so he doesn't wanna do this.

[00:33:56] MATT: And after the call was over, he messaged me and he's like, I didn't mean stubborn, or we're cool, right? And I sent him back a little laugh emoji, but I didn't take the time to say We're cool. So then he invented a situation where we talked on the phone and then he, he, he mentioned it again cuz he is, he doesn't appear to be incredibly kind.

[00:34:18] MATT: He certainly doesn't appear to be gentle, but he is, and he just wanted to make sure we were okay. It was very cute. See,

[00:34:24] FAWN: that's a good person right there. Exactly. Okay. All right. You were saying something about. People are kinder to puppies rather than to students.

[00:34:35] FAWN: Oh

[00:34:35] MATT: my goodness. Yeah. One of the, one of the studies they did was messed up. They concocted the story where, , this entity, this named entity goes through some hardship and battles through it. Right? And as it turns out, people were more likely to be empathetic towards a three year old, a puppy, and a dog, than somebody who was a college student. And the story was something like, uh, Caitlin, uh, injured their leg and they had to have pins put in it and a big, long cast that went all the way to their hip, and they fell down, but they got up and they kept struggling. People were more likely to be empathetic when they found out that caitlin was a, uh, was a puppy or a dog, or a three

[00:35:25] MATT: year old.

[00:35:26] FAWN: And I think that comes because we have so many stories that we hear, and so you develop a certain prejudice. Like if you say college student, I mean, I immediately think entitled I do, I know, you know, obviously this person is like in college, they have a free,

[00:35:45] MATT: would you feel better if they were just

[00:35:47] MATT: 19 years?

[00:35:48] FAWN: No, because I would still feel like, because in our

[00:35:52] FAWN: culture, especially there's this story that goes around saying, this group of people behave this way and this group of people over here, they act this way, this group of people. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like it's like, We're told so many stories in such an advertising kind of fashion where we start hating each other.

[00:36:13] FAWN: We start hating different groups, and we think those groups are always like religious groups or you know, like racial issues. But really there's so many isms out there. There's ageism, there's racism. Every group is portrayed a certain way. I think it's controlling how we behave towards one another.

[00:36:35] FAWN: And I think when you think of college student, you're thinking of a brat who has, you know, they're in college, but they're partying, they're irresponsible. Like you hear these stories all the time. They're in fraternities or sororities and they just party all the time. They go to parties. They have a very rich

[00:36:57] FAWN: life that is, what's the word for it? That that is very, entitled, um, selfish. Right? They're not altruistic. Right. And they're not there to just study.

[00:37:10] MATT: I totally get why you come at it from that direction, but I think the key is, is not that people weren't empathetic towards a college student's plight.

[00:37:19] FAWN: They were just more empathetic towards something cute when

[00:37:23] FAWN: they found

[00:37:24] MATT: cuteness cuteness works and also

[00:37:27] FAWN: cute and harmless because there were, there were puppies, right? they were more empathetic towards something that doesn't cause

[00:37:35] FAWN: trouble.

[00:37:36] MATT: Something that doesn't cause trouble, or something that they could more easily and quickly identify well with, because that's the other thing.

[00:37:44] MATT: People are much more likely to be kind to people who are just like, and just like us is a tricky thing because if I

[00:37:54] FAWN: now,

[00:37:54] FAWN: uh, those people that were saying that, that they were more empathetic towards a puppy. Mm-hmm. , I bet you those people were not parents of kids who are in university.

[00:38:06] MATT: Right, exactly. But how many people have, are either a person at university or have people at the university versus how many people could feel.

[00:38:17] MATT: How many people have ever like taken care of a three year old or a puppy or a dog or pet? A dog, basically, there's a lot more connection there. But yes, cuteness, boom. And also the other thing that we're just not gonna gloss, I'm not gonna let us gloss over, is we're kinder to people who are just like us.

[00:38:35] MATT: One thing that they noticed was with regard. The, uh, invasion of Ukraine is all of a sudden people in Europe were giving more money to Ukraine than they were giving to Syria than they were giving to.

[00:38:49] FAWN: This is not news to me, honey. Well, I

[00:38:51] MATT: know it's not news. The first thing I noticed, this is not news to you, but this might be news to people here.

[00:38:57] MATT: Hmm. It is interesting to note by the way, that that was very much called out in England as being No, but England kind of gives the same all around because they have distance from all of, from, I guess from Ukraine as well as Syria. So you know they have the same amount of empathy across the board. No, but people in Europe itself, Europe proper itself ended up giving more money to Ukraine.

[00:39:21] FAWN: I don't wanna get into this because I'm, this is very heated for me. Mm-hmm. , I immediately noticed, oh, you're gonna help out people who have blue eyes and blonde hair, and fair of skin. But you saw people losing their babies trying to cross over a border, and you kicked them and you humiliated them and you told them to go back.

[00:39:43] FAWN: You treated them worse than you would treat a, a, a piece of trash on the ground. . If someone is light colored, fair skinned, then you're like, oh, please come. I have food for you. I notice that immediately, so I don't wanna go there, but yeah, yeah. People who look like you. But see, most people think that way. I don't, because I am usually the person that I don't look like and I get treated a certain way.

[00:40:14] FAWN: My treatment of others is not the same as how you or most people in our society, our culture behave. So you can't say, we don't put me in there .

[00:40:30] MATT: I was speaking metaphorically about the the we as nation states or whatever you want to call it. Yeah.

[00:40:41] FAWN: The European and North American states. Yeah.

[00:40:50] FAWN: Uncomfortable.

[00:40:51] MATT: Yeah, it does. It makes it kind of hard for me to go on.

[00:40:54] FAWN: Okay. Let's just skip to another, well,

[00:40:56] MATT: no, because I wanna keep, so how do we, how do we make people feel? Or be more like us to help build the kindness, to

[00:41:08] FAWN: build the empathy. Why should they, why? Why so egotistical to be like, you have to be like me, for me to feel anything for you.

[00:41:15] FAWN: I think that's one thing we should look at right there. Why no, no. . Why do you feel like things need to be catered for you, for you to help them?

[00:41:29] MATT: I don't. Unfortunately, you saying

[00:41:32] FAWN: it personally. You said we so I'm you. I know,

[00:41:34] MATT: unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately,

[00:41:37] FAWN: I think that's what needs to be looked at. Why do things need to, why do situations and people need to look a certain way for you to have empathy.

[00:41:48] FAWN: I think

[00:41:48] MATT: it's an evolutionary thing.

[00:41:49] FAWN: I think that, uh, no, I think that's an excuse thing. Well, it

[00:41:52] MATT: is. And there's also kin bias that we could get into. I don't, I'm not a big fan

[00:41:56] FAWN: of kin bias, but we're all, all kin, we're all, I dunno what kin bias is, but we're all kin, we're all, we just said at the beginning of the show, we are interlaced.

[00:42:06] FAWN: Right,

[00:42:07] MATT: right. And one of the ways that we can make ourselves, make ourselves more like others is strictly through contact and communication. Well done. Well, okay, fine. But that's what sometimes studies with. Tens of thousands of people. Again,

[00:42:26] FAWN: these kind of shine a light on in some entitled university who have nothing better to do, but to sip on some tea or like have some Dang, have a drink.

[00:42:37] FAWN: No, I'm serious. Are they really out there? No. It's nice to be in your cushy chair coming up with these, uh, what do you call them, these surveys? Questionnaire surveys. Yeah. Gimme a break. Anyway, toss that out, man. Let's just bring it back to basics , and let's wrap this up. I can't, I can't,

[00:42:56] FAWN: be kind. Don't look for something

[00:42:58] MATT: to look like here. Be kind. Be bold. Don't expect a lot back, and I think it'd be pleasantly surprised.

[00:43:06] FAWN: I just think we all need to look at what the stories are. What are the tribal stories that we have inherited? We can inherit it from the tv, from social media, we can inherit it from people walking down the street and having a conversation.

[00:43:21] FAWN: What stories have we accepted about other people? It's ridiculous, like I think to get back to kindness and start the road of the art of kindness. I think we have to understand all these things that are going around our heads, our preconceived notions, our whatever thoughts that are there, I think we need to start questioning.

[00:43:48] FAWN: Where did that come from? Is that mine?

[00:43:49] FAWN: Yes. And if I don't, if I don't think something is cute, why? If you don't think something is cute, why? Yeah. When you look at, at an Ugly Baby or , a little Winston Churchill? No, I'm just trying to think of like why people, I'm saying ugly baby, in that you always brought up the, um, the thing that babies look like

[00:44:13] FAWN: the father, if the father is not attached to the baby. The baby will start looking like the father. So the father develops an emotional, like animalistic, like, I gotta take care of this thing cuz it looks like me. It was some, something that was like a psychological thing that was looked at. Mm-hmm. , right?

[00:44:32] FAWN: That the baby starts mimicking the person that's not interested, so the person will bond with them. Right. So what I'm saying, When you look at something and you don't think it's attractive, ask yourself, why am I thinking it's not attractive? Or if you're looking at something or someone with indifference or even hate, what is it that you're hating?

[00:44:58] FAWN: Where's that coming from? If you're feeling annoyed, hello me today, where's that annoyance really coming from? Don't always point it at the other person. It's most likely coming from you? Most likely it is a thought that we have in our own selves it's a dialogue that's been happening within ourselves that's creating annoyance.

[00:45:27] FAWN: That's it. Okay. Sounds good. I mean, I think I totally side, side railed what you were saying today, Matt, so you wanna just go through your list please. You did all this research, you were so proud and I totally poo-pooed it. I'm so sorry. Can you just like quickly go through your list and we can say goodbye

[00:45:45] MATT: Oh my goodness. Like the big takeaways? Yeah. Just give us your big takeaways. Okay. So the top five types of kindness from five to one. I have concerned feelings for people less fortunate than myself. That's kindness. That's how people chose to define kindness. Number four, I help strangers pick things up. Uh, number three, I open doors to let people through because that's one of those, I think casually accepted ways to be kind.

[00:46:14] MATT: Number two. Ooh, this one's the syntax. Wait, I thought that was number two. No, that was number three. Okay. Number two, and challenging syntax. I don't mind doing favors for friends. And number one is I help when I'm asked

[00:46:28] MATT: These are

[00:46:28] MATT: the top five types of kindness that people experience.

[00:46:31] MATT: Oh,

[00:46:32] FAWN: okay. Yeah. All right. What else did you learn?

[00:46:34] MATT: That top five places of kindness. Number one, surprise, surprise is the home. Number two is medical. Thank God that people are kind to medical stuff. Number three is work. Number four is, they call it green spots or parks or open fields. And number five is the shops. But keep in mind, this is Britain. So this is Britain.

[00:46:54] FAWN: Well, I have so much to say about every single one of those like. Um, I used to think we had a lot of friends on Bainbridge Island, but it turns out all of our friends worked at the grocery store and they were held captive cuz they had to be nice to us. Right. And we thought they were our friends. They were friendly.

[00:47:12] FAWN: They were friendly. We even saw them outside of work, but they weren't really our friends.

[00:47:17] MATT: Point.

[00:47:18] FAWN: So, yeah, that's kind of like social media. You think you have followers, you think you have friends, but it's really the circumstances that make you feel like you have friendship and you're not really working hard and it's not reciprocated in a true source of friendship the way it should be.

[00:47:38] FAWN: Right. Um, green space. Yeah. Nature teaches us everything,

[00:47:46] MATT: and I think it also gives us more opportunities to interact on a different level

[00:47:51] FAWN: than we normally do. When you go back to nature, you go back to the way things are naturally right, and you behave better because you feel better. That is true. So, you know, I mean, this is a heated topic, but a.

[00:48:08] FAWN: Neighborhoods that are experiencing suffering don't have trees in the neighborhood. True. It's like concrete, but um, so that's what these college people, university people came up with? Yes. That list? Yes. All right guys, we don't need this. We have our own spiritual selves. We have our hearts and our psych.

[00:48:32] FAWN: We know all this. We don't. This is ridiculous that we have to turn to like some university. Man, this is so stupid. Whack. Well, um, no, it's not. Nothing against you, honey. I'm just saying like, you know, there are people out there with PhDs, there are people out there who are wildly popular, who have like best selling books out there.

[00:48:53] FAWN: But like, you know, we're, we're saying the truth, but, you know, whatever, you know. Just, we should be listening to each other. We all have the truth and we know how, how it is to be kind. You can smell something natural and you can smell something synthetic. When you're in nature, you know what it feels like to be embraced by nature, and I think our nature is to be kind.

[00:49:23] FAWN: Anyway, that's it. Sounds. Well, alright. Let us know what you think. As usual, go to our friendly world podcast.com. Please reach out to us. I know you're walking around. I know you're jogging. I know you're busy. When you have a chance, please tell other people about the podcast. Let's get this movement really going again and bring back the art of friendship.

[00:49:47] FAWN: And we, with that, we can change the world, everybody. It's simple. It's not hard and doesn't take time. Instant. All right. Love you guys. Be

[00:49:59] MATT: bold and be well. Bye.